Singletrack World Response to Nadine Dorries’ Comments on Trans Athletes

No mention of Kate Weatherly? Interesting story, 2018 NZ women’s DH champion.

A vastly complex issue, on which I ‘m still kind of undecided, but I think that STW hasn’t put any effort or thought at all into this article and certainly not into explaining the reasons behind what seems a pretty firm stance, albeit slightly tempered by Mark’s responses. Sorry folks.

I’d rather not think of it as the clickbait that has been alluded to above, but I don’t think that the authors have written anything to explain their thinking behind, and justification for, trans competitors in disciplines that are strength, and possibly endurance, based or are contact sports.

I would appreciate more, perhaps a short rationale from each of the article’s contributors (I assume since it’s byelined ‘Singletrack Magazine’ there were multiple contributors.)

Proposing people only compete as their birth gender shows a lack of understanding of the issue that is ignorant at best and profoundly cruel at worst.

Sex is not equal to gender.

Women’s only spaces are necessary in society to confront sex based discrimination and in sport to allow for fair competition. Allowing males to compete as females denies women this right.

Someone way up there in the comments seemed to suggest this was written because it’s what I’d been told to write. One of the great pleasures of working for Singletrack World is that I don’t have to write anything I don’t believe in.

It would likely have been easier for us to say nothing, but personally I believe that Nadine Dorries’ direction leaves out any possibility for inclusion of Trans athletes in competition, and that is – I think- a position too exclusionary and prejudicial to ignore.

Much has been said in the comments in the name of defending women. As a woman, I thought I would add my personal perspective – and since I started drafting this comment someone has asked for it. So here goes.

Personally, I am uncomfortable with the FINA position, in as much as I think it risks the policing of women’s bodies. Who is ‘woman enough?’ to avoid being subjected to tests and inspections because someone thinks a successful athlete looks a bit too tall/powerful/muscular/whatever to be allowed to compete without some form of certification? I have been quite regularly misgendered throughout my life, which is both mystifying and unpleasant when it happens. I hate to think what someone could be subjected to if people could demand you confirm ‘what’ you are. The science seems to me far from settled – it’s only fairly recently that the idea of ‘women’s specific geometry’ has been largely dropped from bike design. If we can spend years assuming women’s arms, legs and torsos are so differently proportioned that they need different bikes, only to rapidly drop such a premise, perhaps other ‘measurements’ of female-ness may also be revisited, or at least subject to more research?

In addition, as women have broken down barriers to participation, there are an increasing number of sporting instances where they are challenging – and sometimes beating – male counterparts, over the same courses. Perhaps this demonstrates that the male/female divide is not necessarily that relevant – or perhaps these successful women are going to find themselves subjected to tests? I fear that the threat to women’s bodily autonomy and right to privacy is greater than the ‘threat to women’s sports’. Certainly, I think there are far greater threats to women’s sports – a lack of equal pay, for example – and to women’s liberties more generally.

I can’t help but feel that stirring up division between those who might otherwise share common goals of overcoming barriers and oppression is exactly what those with power want – it’s a big dead cat that’s making us weak in the face of broader restrictions on liberties and human rights.

Thank you for what are, by and large, reasonable and thoughtful responses to this article.

The issue being at what point does a “male” become a “female”, you know, the key thing for trans people….

It’s not just that either though. Just imagine a 7’2” trans woman with hands like shovels turning up in the WNBA (as an extreme example). Yes she could well be female by all accounts, but fair…?

This is an interesting thread for context on sex

https://mobile.twitter.com/RebeccaRHelm/status/1207834357639139328

Not seeing any hate on this thread, just different opinions.

to avoid being subjected to tests and inspections because someone thinks a successful athlete looks a bit too tall/powerful/muscular/whatever to be allowed to compete without some form of certification

But surely this is unavoidable, there needs to some kind of ‘rule’ surely, regardless of what that is.

Currently we are debating woman who are trans, they’ve made a gender choice, they are undergoing transitioning. Whether they should be allowed to compete with females is up for debate, personally I don’t think they should at elite level

But with no ‘tests and inspections’ as you put it in place, there would be nothing stopping a bloke who wasn’t trans, identifying as a lady simply to win. You honestly think there isn’t a chance someone languishing around 600 in the world in the mens tennis ranking wouldnt be remotely tempted to rock up and take home the 2 million quid woman’s Wimbledon prize if they could?

Currently we are debating woman who are trans, they’ve made a gender choice, they are undergoing transitioning.

I’d argue that for the vast majority of TG people it is not a choice, it’s a need. If you want to consider it a choice, I can’t give a definitive answer but my son would say the choice is between transitioning and ending his own life.

Sure, they may be cases where people may in future transition ‘just enough’ to retain as much advantage as possible and as few of the disadvantages, but that needs a different analysis.

@stwhannah
When I said journalists write what they are paid to write, I was responding to this:
“…even most of the junior staff at the tabloids, have views so out of kilter with the majority of people in the UK”
You know, as if those working at the Mail share the same views as Paul Dacre.

Agree with much of what tpbiker says apart from the bit about trans people making a choice about their gender. It’s not a choice in any meaningful sense of the word. But it does mean, in my book, that trans women cannot compete in some professional sports.

I wait to see the carnage and injury on the rugby field when a 6ft9″ 18 stone 2nd rower transitions and then plays women’s rugby. Even after Testosterone reduction etc There will be major injury and the risk of death even for the born-female opposition that get in the way.
Then maybe some may realise it is not a level playing field.

And now patient confidentiality and the requirement for consent to access medical records to be removed for children who have transitioned…

Today I proposed a change in law so that @Hilary_Cass independent review into childhood gender dysphoria can access historical records.

It’s vital the review is rooted in the highest quality evidence.https://t.co/1qC3IU9iEe

— Sajid Javid (@sajidjavid) June 30, 2022

…pretty clear that ministers think they have a wedge issue to try and claw back some approval.

I’d argue that for the vast majority of TG people it is not a choice, it’s a need.

I suspect you’re right for now (and obviously I bow to your greater experience on the matter).

But I think it logically follows that as society becomes (rightly) increasingly tolerant of trans people, more people will view it as a choice. Perhaps those with a lesser degree of gender dysphoria (compared to your son). If we continue to see a reduction in stigma around transitioning, those individuals might see transitioning as a viable choice to reduce milder gender dysphoria symptoms.

@i_scoff_cake – i don’t know why children have to be educated in this at all. Why can’t the ‘authorities’ just let them be kids for a decade or so? My nephew who is 7 is completely bamboozled by it all.

I feel that the hard right would like trans rights to be wedge issue and have probably been working hard on it on social media for a while – turning feminists against liberals – what’s not to like?

My view, which I think recent survey showed is pretty typical, is to understand that being trans is real and deserve support and empathy, trans people are not scary (although trans rights activists can be)…however fairness is really important to people and we don’t like thinks that are clearly not fair, such as competing against female sports people with a male body. Anyone who follows cycle sport or even just looks at their strava knows there’s a big difference between the sexes.

Of course no one transitions to win races but if you have transitioned from an adult male and are a sportsperson then it’s clearly not fair to race against females. Hopefully you could still race against men – even if not so fast as before, though you probably weren’t winning races then either.

There just isn’t a clear answer that makes everyone happy, but I feel trans people giving way on competitive sport will win more support and understanding compared with insisting on trans rights over ruling everything, and do sometimes wonder if the TR activists are really there to support trans people or are just culture warriors.

Why is there never any discussion out spent controversy over female to male athletes in elite sports? Is it because there are none or it’s it because they don’t really have a meaningful impact on the pointy end of the results table? I genuinely don’t know

@thegreatape

No, I don’t find it particularly intrusive and don’t mind answering. And although I find some posters on here quite dog whistley in the way they phrase their questions, making it sound quite clear to me they have a particular position, I think some of their concerns are valid. I hope people will read my answers and think rather than kneejerking responses back; this might be quite rambly, and a lot of quoting, but you asked so here goes

I don’t know how old your son is, perhaps already an adult, but if not, do the experiences of people who have transitioned, particularly when including surgical procedures, and later regretted it and wishes they hadn’t done, does that worry you at all?

He’s 16 now. He has always been a tomboy, expressed significant dysphoria at about 12, basically when puberty started which of course in his body means some very obvious changes, that we have to deal with now on a daily (binding) or monthly basis. He socially transitioned at 13 and some, basically we discussed at length and in conjunction with the school decided that he would end the Christmas term in his old identity and return in his new. That was Dec 19/Jan 20.

It was hard, the school was supportive as were many friends but some were not. Some kids were absolute C***’s about it. The misuse of names, pronouns (that’s why a poster on the other thread pissed me off so royally the other day. It is a HUGE thing to some TG people and it’s a tiny accommodation really), deliberate misgendering / ‘oh look, here “it” comes’ comments …. but he was dealing with it and facing up to it.

Then Covid and he was isolated from facing up to the bullies, and also his supporters. They were bleak times. Some days we couldn’t get him out of bed, let alone on line to do school work. My wife and I would go to work when we had to and worried sick until we got back whether he’d do something stupid while we were away.

And yes, I do worry about choices, but it is absolute Hobson’s right now and has been for some time. I worry about all their choices though, that’s what parents do. Are they mixing with the wrong friends, has my daughter made the right Uni choices, etc. Sure, this one has lower reversibility and bigger implications, and who knows, maybe it will be a regret in future but I don’t know what the alternative is. But we are now on a (private) path to transition, including counselling, hormone blockers to try to stop periods, and T to start the bodily transitions. He wants top surgery as soon as he can; wearing binders for all his public time is very uncomfortable, and doing GCSE’s in 30 degrees with restricted breathing because you’re wearing a tight as you can bear canvas vest has been hideous, So yes, we are looking at it, if anyone has a spare ten grand.

On that point – my big regret right now is NOT acting sooner – back at 12/13 when we did the classic parenting thing of ‘hoping’ it was a phase and sought counselling (CAHMS were utterly useless, not blaming the counsellors themselves, rather chronic underfunding and lack of resource / waiting times) We should have called time out and sorted puberty blockers then; I know people will say 12’s too young but him going through puberty has made the situation significantly worse. Waiting for a referral to GIDS / Tavistock is pointless.

Also, what do you think about the debate over conversion therapy for trans people? Some people argue that anything that isn’t entirely affirming amounts to conversion therapy, whereas others argue that exploratory/talking therapies are an important safety net and a way of getting to the bottom of someone’s distress over their sex/gender, and for a lot of kids who feel like they may need to transition it turns out not to be the right solution for them. Obviously out and out attempts to “cure” trans people are as offensive as efforts to “cure” gay folk, but exploring the possibility that other issues may be a factor seems sensible and reasonable to me.

All fair points and asked sensitively. As above we have sought counselling because getting to understand why he has this distress is important. Although we have not got far with CAHMS, if you do have counselling with them there seems to me to be a Catch 22 approach. They won’t in general start onward referrals for an unhappy teen for the fear unhappy teens are clutching at straws, so you need to be mentally in a good place before they will make referrals. But the issue you can’t get the referral for is the very issue that prevents you being in a good place, and the longer it takes the bigger the issue to be dealt with. Hence as I say why we have had to dig into savings – I’m lucky in the sense I have savings to dig into. YMMV. OTOH, I don’t think referrals and treatments should be handed out without an appropriate level of discussion, understanding of risks / implications, and can a child really understand that? Gillick, etc. – should a parent make a decision on their behalf? I agonise, but as i say in the end I feel we either have no choice, or the choice we have is very lesser of two evils.

We also joined a TG charity and then left it again, because it felt too much like becoming someone’s ‘project’ to support transitioning. Can’t put my finger on why but yes, what others have suggested did feel a real threat to us. Another catch 22 – moving through processes at pace is advantageous for physical reasons as much as anything, but decisions need to be discussed and thought through rather than rushed. Are puberty blockers to buy time ‘the’ answer? I don’t know; I’m not convinced there’s sufficient knowledge about reversibility or long term effects, yet I’m paying for them monthly.

So there – answers as best as i can give them, although I’ll admit as a parent my short answer to most is actually ‘I don’t know’. I don’t think anyone really does right now In the end I’m trying to do the best I can, because that’s all I can do.

I have never understood why people feel so fearful of and threatened by trans people.

I am also intrigued that so many groups that never gave a shit are now so concerned about women’s rights (in areas that won’t actually help many of us like public toilets and elite sport) Thanks people! Can we keep the momentum going and get to something helpful now like pay equity?

Even the far right are getting onside defending us women I won’t link to it but Wings Over Scotland website is a good example. Again, cheers.

Agree, very honest and brave @theotherjonv – as if teens and their parents don’t have enough worries, what you are all dealing with is incredible.

@hels makes an excellent point as well about selective support for women’s rights.

HAve you seen womans rugby? The rower wouldn’t last a minute. They’re hard as nails. And they’re vicious

Was that humour ? Hard to tell.

@theotherjonv

Thank you for taking the time to type all that. It’s very helpful to hear first hand accounts of regular people (as opposed to social media dogmatic shout everyone down people, on either side of the debate) who are going through this.

In the end I’m trying to do the best I can, because that’s all I can do.

I don’t think you can ask for any more than that from a parent.