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XC racing. How technical?

120 posts & 35 voices | Started 1 year ago by jam bo | Latest reply from jam bo

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Brownbacks - Member

I have ridden some races where I think the organisers think marshalls are there to point the way and stop folk cheating. They are there to protect the riders and summon help if needed.

as we run two courses at the same time we use marshals to ensure the right rider goes the right way at splits, the aim is to stop the less skilled rider entering the technical sections on the main course

I didnt see any marshals with flags.

the organiser should have been gripped by the commissaire, clearly in the rules as a requirement. I got my mum to make some out of old curtain material

Posted 1 year ago #
njee20 - Member

These threads really do bring out the willy wavers don't they. Juan...

Most people get injured at races like Thetford and Sherwood, where the speeds are very high and the riders are very close. Hitting a tree at 5mph picking your way round a rock strewn switchback is usually better than hitting on at 25mph flat out through a ferny piece of singletrack!

I don't mind having technical descents where everyone can have a crack, but I think drops are a bit daft, as they just polarise people, you either do them, or you don't, and it's rarely skill related, more balls! If you want to do racing that tests the size of your testicles, go do DH or 4X!

Posted 1 year ago #
tinsy - Member

It doesnt take much Brownbacks, I will watch out for some kind of flags and mention of it in the riders breifing this year.

Harry the spider, that muddy drop is just the sort of section that needed a marshal with a yellow up the top to let oncoming riders that old numpty boy was struggling and not to just launch off the top.

Posted 1 year ago #
njee20 - Member

If you launched off hard enough you'd probably just clear him! I imagine it's what at least half the folk on here would do

Posted 1 year ago #
hels - Member

Yes true sometimes Marshalls are needed for directional, but their primary role is safety. I rode a race once, not naming names, but the course was about 7 K and they had TWO MARSHALLS. I know cos I counted, sad person that I am I notice these things. They were obligingly pointing the way to riders tho.

But anyways yes I digress. Laggan technical ? Only problem on that XC course is staying awake. I advise taking a book for the fireroads.

Posted 1 year ago #
oldgit - Member

I get worried when people mention the word technical. I'm as you've already guessed old school xc, and don't really know what technical is. My assumption is that technical covers areas were specific skills or training would be required or the need to negotiate man made sections. The picture back there to me isn't technical merely a muddy slope, that's why the word intimidates me a bit.

Posted 1 year ago #
trail_rat - Member

yup agreed- there are more technical roads around here hels - but its still a single up followed by a single down.

Posted 1 year ago #
IA - Member

On an unrelated note, but relevant to the OP. Go ride some XC races. By all means make a techy one, but trying to organise a race of a type you've never done yourself is asking for trouble/poor race. Common mistakes would appear to include getting the length of laps wrong (either too long, or not realising how fast the fast folk can be).

Or if you have raced XC, you don't mention it - but would then surely have an idea how techy it can be.

Posted 1 year ago #
coffeeking - Member

I get worried when people mention the word technical.

I thnk technical covers anything that requires thought and skills to ride, plenty of sections or trails don't require that at all. Natural trails need it fairly often, places like llandegla rarely do. I think I'd define it as the stuff that experienced riders pass over and make look fairly easy, but the newcomers struggle on. I'm not sure manmade stuff really fits under that heading, apart from woodwork maybe.

Posted 1 year ago #
njee20 - Member

The picture back there to me isn't technical merely a muddy slope, that's why the word intimidates me a bit.

And that's the trouble, it's very subjective!

Take the BMBS last year, for anyone that rode it, there were triple down arrows at Worry Gill and Medusas Drops at Dalby, the former was **** steep, totally ridable, but was causing a number of people (I'm happy to admit I was one of them!) a reasonable amount of grief/self doubt. Then at Crow Hill there was another triple down arrow, you'd think within the series at least there'd be a modicum of standardisation, but that was for a loamy slope at which I didn't see anyone hesitate!

Now someone who came to Crow, and thought that was a 'triple down' section may be in for a nasty surprise when they launch themselves off some of the other more technical sections in other courses!

Posted 1 year ago #
juan - Member

Not being willy waver njee, but the black at laggan isn't tech at all. ou don't have to think about your trajectory. For each rocky bit, there is a clear kick off and a clear exit. You don't have to think about where you're going to put your wheel. Just point, and shout. The devil staircase downhill is more techy in the sense that you have to think about where you go a bit more.

Posted 1 year ago #
njee20 - Member

Fair enough, I've not been so I'm not really qualified to comment, but I've heard a lot of people (including on here) say that it's about the most technical trail centre in the country. So to say it's not technical seems questionable to me!

Posted 1 year ago #
coffeeking - Member

Loads of people claim the kelpies "obstacle" at carron valley is technical and difficult and worthy of note, but I didn't even realise I'd ridden over it and was still hunting for it by the time I reached the bottom (not willy waving, was genuinely amused). Everyones technical will be different.

Posted 1 year ago #
trail_rat - Member

what do you ride juan .... i was speaking about the XC race course there...

the black is tech as **** on an 80mm 26inch wheeled carbon race bike ...

its reasonable on a 5inch trail bike

its as much fun as a week in quarantine on a downhill bike

Posted 1 year ago #
Harry_the_Spider - Member

If you look in the picture there is a marshal at the top (although we don’t give them flags and BC have never pulled us up for that). We had another one at the bottom behind the position from which the photo was taken.
As luck would have it I have a copy of the British Cycling Mountain Bike Event Organiser’s Handbook on my desk (next to the hand cream, but that is a different thread).

Posted 1 year ago #
juan - Member

trail rat I rode it twice, once on the hj and once on the hoss

Posted 1 year ago #
tinsy - Member

Harry the spider, I can see the marshal, I can see he has no flag, I am not knocking you for not having a flag as I have never seen one at an XC event either, but it wouldnt hurt to adopt the use of them, even if BC dont enforce it..

Its odd the handbook makes no mention of the yellow flag and yet the picture shows one.

It just saves the marshal from having to say rider down to each and every rider entering the section.

I take my hat off to anyone organizing an event, there is certainly a lot to it.

I raced MX for years and before a radio would have been commonplace for marshalls, it was all done on a flag system, yellow for proceed with caution, a white for medical assitance and a red for stop the race.
(yellow with black cross last lap, and obviously the chequer but not really important for MTB I know)

Posted 1 year ago #
Harry_the_Spider - Member

In this case the approach was slow with good visibility. I don't see a difference between a shouted warning and a waved flag.

From a personal perspective I would rather have the marshal shout "Steady on! Man down! Take the chicken run or wait for him to get up!" (which is what they were doing) rather than be subjected to some non-specific flag waving.

The important thing is that the BC officials were happy with the course, the marking, the hazard warning, the marshal location, the briefing, the first aid cover, the risk assessment and so on. I think that they apply a bit of common sense when it comes to interpretation of the hand book.

Posted 1 year ago #
tracknicko - Member

dunkeld busa was class spectating mind.

managed to convince about 1 in every 20 riders to launch the rock drop off towards the end of the DH course in the xc race. including will evans (i think) running at it on a chainless giant trance.

great fun.

Posted 1 year ago #
njee20 - Member

Aye that was the tiny drop that no one would do, very strange! I think it was the DHers baying for blood that put people off!

Posted 1 year ago #
tracknicko - Member

think it was about 3ft or so. had a little rock in the landing too that you had to clear. like half way up the last section before you drop into the finish fire road.

very amusing.

Posted 1 year ago #
Harry_the_Spider - Member

We try and make the course appear harder than it is whilst making it safer than it looks if you know what I mean

Maybe that is one of the reasons why we don't see casualties on the technical sections... everybody is concentrating and even if you do cock it up it isn't as bad as you first thought.

Posted 1 year ago #
njee20 - Member

I don't remember it being that big, the one right at the bottom, someone had sprayed a 'runway' up to it and written 'huck it' in massive letters, with the massive crowd of cheering DHers! It can't have been 3 foot if I rode it!

Edit: it's like I said earlier, most injuries tend to happen at speed, most people riding scary looking stuff are going slowly, so less likely to get badly hurt.

Posted 1 year ago #
hels - Member

Actually you can add Photographers to the list of Hazard Warnings for Riders. I am always more alert when I see one of those vultures, although one day I might get annoyed enough to accidently crash into one, I think it's a liberty to take pics of complete strangers in public (and even more to publish them) but I appear to be old-fashioned on that one.

Baying crowds definitely make me slot into Mince Mode !!

Posted 1 year ago #
tracknicko - Member

nah it will have been further up. it was a bone fide drop off a rock thing, pretty much onto flat too.

one of the dunkeld locals will know it. i had a photo of it once, god knows where tho.

Posted 1 year ago #
njee20 - Member

Aaah, that I do remember! Think there were more people around the one at the bottom, which everyone was still avoiding!

Posted 1 year ago #
tracknicko - Member

oh aye i think it was just me and about 1 other optimistically screaming DO THE DROOOOOOPPPP to anyone that went past.

Posted 1 year ago #
Brownbacks - Member

10.0 GENERAL CROSS COUNTRY
REGULATIONS
10.5.2 Marshals
10.5.2.1 A flag system must be applied as follows:
10.5.2.1.1 All marshals working in potentially
hazardous sections must carry a yellow
flag which will be used during training and
racing sessions.
10.5.2.1.2 If this flag is held out stretched, riders
must slow down since an accident ahead is
being indicated.
10.5.2.2 All marshals must ideally have line of sight
with each other and carry whistles which
will be blown with a short sharp blast as
the next rider approaches.

just shows that you need to read more than the handbook

anyway Hit the North Opertes under cyclocross rules as parts of the course are unrideable?

10.1 Course Design Parameters
10.1.1 The course must be 100% rideable
regardless of the terrain and weather
conditions. Brief and unavoidable
dismounts may be approved by the
Technical Delegate and/or the Race
Commissaire.

or did you get approval?

Posted 1 year ago #
DT78 - Member

Must admit I was pleasantly suprised and impressed with the last Gorrick, It was alot more technical than i was expecting.

Actually I suppose it depends on your definition - does tech = dangerous or does tech = difficult to get up/down at speed not dabbing etc

my definition of tech is the second. For instance I don't really think of the black run at whites level as technical....

(this is my first year racing tho)

Posted 1 year ago #
The Beard - Member

oh aye i think it was just me and about 1 other optimistically screaming DO THE DROOOOOOPPPP to anyone that went past.

My brother did that race and felt compelled to do the drop each lap - until his bull-in-a-chinashop approach to all things like that finally caught up with him and he destroyed his rear wheel...

Posted 1 year ago #
njee20 - Member

does tech = dangerous or does tech = difficult to get up/down at speed not dabbing

That's my point, drops/jumps aren't really in the spirit of things IMO, people do them because they have the balls (and probably the skill), or they don't because the lack the balls (and possibly the skill). Technical descents offer much more opportunity for skilled riders to open gaps over those less skilled.

Posted 1 year ago #
juan - Member

Well i agree with njee, there is not much technical on a drop. However a steep twisty and rocky trail now that's techy

Posted 1 year ago #
njee20 - Member

Agreed, and if you want to make a course technical that's the sort of stuff that should be included.

Basically you want to reward the riders who are good bike handlers, and penalise those who aren't. Doesn't actually have to be steep to do that mind!

Posted 1 year ago #
mark_b - Member

Worry Gill from the NPS XC at Dalby linked from the British Cycling website

Is that tech enough ?

Posted 1 year ago #
juan - Member

mark nope.
I need a closer film, but from what I can see, clean line before and after a steep bit. It's not like they had to actually put the wheel in the correct place and to deal with a tight switchback in the middle of it.
Looks to me that people mistake techy with
Dangerous
Steep
Rocky

Posted 1 year ago #
Dougal - Member

Worry Gill was IN NO WAY TECHNICAL. It's merely a drop that required a bit of balls.

Hated the start to that race, basically watched the top three ride away while the people between me and them minced it up. You can see my trackstanding at the top of that drop while the faceplanter is moved out of the way at 1min in that video.

Posted 1 year ago #
Brownbacks - Member

moving away from 10..2.2 etc Hit the North and many other events are well run and as with all events will get better will more rider support. BC rules have their impracticalities and the organisers guide as a first go is OK but needs some parts addressing

I'm not sure where the obsession with "tech" parts of the course and making things more technical etc etc leads us

IMHO it's about geting the balance of the course right so that both fitness and technical skills are needed to do well whilst doing what you can with the venue (as this is the true limiting factor).

get it wrong and you will turn riders off, get it right and they come back for more. We make no claims to have got it right.

I hope the proposed race gets off the ground and is well supported, what is needed is more real racing and less faux racing (eg "challenges", marathon series etc)

Posted 1 year ago #
Harry_the_Spider - Member

After numerous meetings with BC in various muddy fields and supermarket cafes I’m not sure that either party knows what rules HtN operates under. Moutainbiking I think, certainly not CX. They gave us the mountainbike handbook but have never waived a rule book under our noses and said that we don’t comply with 10.22 or any other law.

From what I can gather as long as we and they apply a degree of common sense and ensure that the event is as safe as possible we can do what we want.

Design the course however you want to. But do it in a way that the insurer and the competitors are happy.

Posted 1 year ago #
jam bo - Member

blimey. lots of answers for a passing thought.

anyway, watch this space. I think we'll be doing something in the future...

Posted 1 year ago #
buzz-lightyear - Member

"but the black at laggan isn't tech at all"

Too tech for me. Guess I normally ride negative tech!

I would put in some reasonable downhill obstacles: drops, logs, awkward corners, root bundles - it makes riders think about how committed they feel. If they mince or walk them they lose time. If they crash, they lose time.

Overtaking on downhills, esp singletrack sounds dangerous - worse than 4X! I had assumed that courses were designed for chasing tails on the downhills and then overtaking on the uphills.

Posted 1 year ago #