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Working hours advice

50 posts & 22 voices | Started 2 years ago by billybob | Latest reply from Sandwich

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billybob - Member

Yesterday myself & 2 co workers worked from 6am in til 2.30am this morning, this included 8 hours driving to & from site (225miles away). We were expected to then turn up to work this morning at 8.30 as usual.

I phoned my manager last night about 7.30 to let them know we weren't going to be back til about 2.30am & that we wouldn't be coming in until 10.30 (2 hours later than our usual start time) so far today my co worker has had a phone call from work at 8.30 asking where he is as there is an install needed at 9am! & myself have just had a call telling me someone is coming into see me at 10!!

In the same situation what would you do?

Posted 2 years ago #
CaptainFlashheart - Member

What's in your contract of employment?

Posted 2 years ago #
TandemJeremy - Member

Your employer is in beach of the law. Join a union. Working time directive states you must have 11 hrs of between shifts - no exceptions IIRC.

It is also totally pointless working those long hours anyway - after 10 hrs productivity drops so low as to make it pointless.( clearly seen in research)

Tell your employer where to go. That is totally unreaasonable unless it is a real crisis.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/WorkingHoursAndTimeOff/DG_10029451

Posted 2 years ago #
Drac - Moderator

Contract has nothing to do with it really, you have the right to 11 hours between shifts unless you've opted out.

Daily rest - a break between working days

If you are an adult worker you have the right to a break of at least 11 hours between working days. This means as an adult worker, if you finish work at 8.00 pm on Monday you should not start work until 7.00 am on Tuesday.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/WorkingHoursAndTimeOff/DG_10029451

Damn too slow.

Posted 2 years ago #
Lucas - Member

Health and saftey policy needs looking at if your allowed to drive 4 hrs after working for 16 odd hours!!

Posted 2 years ago #
TandemJeremy - Member

You cannot opt out of the 11 hrs off between shifts IIRC. The only opt out is of the 48 hr max week

Posted 2 years ago #
mrmichaelwright - Member

most employers who are likely to need it will 'ask' you 'politely' to opt out. all 'voluntary' of course

Posted 2 years ago #
simonk - Member

there is no opt out, you must have 11 hours off between shifts/working day.

Posted 2 years ago #
Drac - Moderator

You cannot opt out of the 11 hrs off between shifts IIRC. The only opt out is of the 48 hr max week

You can claim it as over time if you wish and the employer agrees it the impression I had.

Posted 2 years ago #
TandemJeremy - Member

I don't think so drac. I am fairly sure it is an absolute

Posted 2 years ago #
Drac - Moderator

You may well be right if it's the case then I know many who are breaking it.

Posted 2 years ago #
mrmichaelwright - Member

it's a virtually un-enforceable law without the threat of union input/industrial action.

The law is extremely wishy washy and any good lawyer can get round it in court, there are exceptions for all sorts of things. You are however entitled to take compensatory rest at a later date.

basically your 'right' is to 11 hours off unless your company really needs you not to. bit of a joke really.

Posted 2 years ago #
vinnyeh - Member

You can claim it as over time if you wish and the employer agrees it the impression I had.

That's a bit worrying you knowing that Drac- that doesn't happen in the paramedic world does it (disasters excepted)?

Posted 2 years ago #
Drac - Moderator

From the same site.

Do you have to take your breaks?

It is recommended that you take your rest breaks. They are there to protect your health and safety and you are entitled to them.

So according to that no you don't have to take them.

Posted 2 years ago #
Drac - Moderator

That's a bit worrying you knowing that Drac- that doesn't happen in the paramedic world does it (disasters excepted)?

What disasters are you on about?

Posted 2 years ago #
TandemJeremy - Member

The other aspect is you have gone into night working which raises a whole 'nother set of issues - including you should be health assessed and so on.

it is possible your employer could have an exemption - but these are rarer than people think - if so you rare entitled to the compensatory rest another day.

You are being abused. Don't let them do it

Posted 2 years ago #
mrmichaelwright - Member

jobs requiring constant staffing are exempt from the rules, ie any front line medical staff.

if you are driving a company vehicle then your fleet insurance will take a dim view of the companies H&S policy if you are driving under such conditions.

I work extremely long hours all the time but i'm self employed, maybe i could take myself to court and retire on the proceeds

Posted 2 years ago #
mrmichaelwright - Member

sadly, as right as TJ is, the employment climate in this country allows employers to get away with all sorts like this. The recession has only made it worse

Posted 2 years ago #
muddydwarf - Member

My G/F woeks for Game. She was in yesterday at 7am til 4pm, then went back at 11pm til 2am for the COD/MW2 launch.
She was then aiming to be back at work for 8am this morning and wondered why i went off the deep end at her!

After 3hrs sleep she would be driving a lethal weapon through rush hour traffic on the M60, one of the busiest M-ways in Britain.
She didn't listen of course, she is in thrall to the 'company' and lets them walk all over her. She kept bleating about the 'needs of the business' and wouldn't listen when i tried to tell her about her own bloody needs - i.e. rest and sleep!

Posted 2 years ago #
CaptJon - Member

OP - union up.

the employment climate in this country

grrr - why is everything a climate these days. It is 'labour market' .../pedant

Posted 2 years ago #
TandemJeremy - Member

Muddy - that is a clear beech of the law. Almost certainly voids her car insurance as well and puts her at risk of prosecution for driving in that state.

Posted 2 years ago #
mrmichaelwright - Member

wouldn't listen when i tried to tell her about her own bloody needs - i.e. rest and sleep

welcome to britain, ask a Frenchman about the same thing, you';ll get a very different answer (well unless they work for Orange, where there is a problem with staff committing suicide after they tried to copy british working practices in french offices)

Posted 2 years ago #
nbt - Member
Drac - Member

From the same site.

Do you have to take your breaks?

It is recommended that you take your rest breaks. They are there to protect your health and safety and you are entitled to them.

So according to that no you don't have to take them.

except
Types of breaks

You will normally have a variety of different breaks from work. These can be broken down into three types:
- 'rest breaks' - lunch breaks, tea breaks and other short breaks during the day
- 'daily rest' - the break between finishing one day's work and starting the next (for most people this is overnight between week days)
- 'weekly rest' - whole days when you don't come into work (for many people this will be the weekend)
The second and third types of break are almost never paid unless you have to remain 'on call', meaning you are available to work. The first type is often paid, but doesn't have to be unless your contract says so.
So taking a ten minute break for a cuppa is optional, but th ebreak between shifts isn;t
Posted 2 years ago #
Drac - Moderator

So taking a ten minute break for a cuppa is optional, but th ebreak between shifts isn;t

Still didn't say it was compulsory though, in fact it backs up it up saying you can be paid if you employer agrees.

Posted 2 years ago #
gravitysucks - Member

Sounds like the management are trying it on. If you correctly informed them that you will not be starting work until later then its your right to not be pressured into anything. I would go in as previously arranged and have a word with the manager and highlight the H & S aspect of things. If your doing a lot of driving, just tell him your not comfortable driving when not properly rested. We've all seen in the news about what has happended when people fall asleep at the wheel.
Personaly I'd get your point across now and in future just ignore all incoming calls that could be work related

Posted 2 years ago #
ourmaninthenorth - Member

The driving when so tired worries me, though being epxected to pull long hours doesn't.

I've done my fair share of 24+ hour "days" (longest is 40 hours), as it's considered par for the course in the rather macho world I work in.

However, I would never drive after those days - I know of two people who were very lucky to walk away from car crashes after a 48 hour transaction closing and who both crashed (independently) on the way home.

Not good.

Posted 2 years ago #
muddydwarf - Member

TJ - that's what i told her, but all i got in reply was "i'll be fine".

Told her ok then, it won't be me scraping you off the motorway at 7:30am...

Posted 2 years ago #
lyons - Member

ok, slightly different, but i work for a company that does 'emergency call outs' ( yeah, it is classed as an emergency if someones lights arent working for a night :twisted:). So i regularly work an 8 ish hour day, then have to go out to do other work in the evenings. And then at weekends, its the same. Weekend before last i was working from 8.30 till 5. Got home, had dinner then had to go back out from 7 till 11. Then up again to do similar on sunday....

I know it's illegal, especially as it isnt on my contract but if i kick up a fuss, i'll be out the door. There were 98 applicants for my job so it wouldnt be hard to replace me.

I plan to leave in february at the latest anyway, but it takes the p1ss really.

Posted 2 years ago #
TandemJeremy - Member

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm - looking at the TUC site it appears that if you ask for the 11 hr break you have to be granted it ( unless you are in one of the rare exceptions) but if you don't want it you don't have to have it.

Not how I understood it and not clear on that site.

Thanks to Europe, we have had
minimum standards for rest breaks
since 1998. Most people are entitled to:
a break where the working day is
longer than six hours
a rest period of 11 hours every working
day
a rest period of 24 hours once in every
seven days.
Following a successful legal case
brought by a trade union, employers
now have a duty to make sure that you
can take your breaks.

My italics and bold - from a tuc leaflet

Posted 2 years ago #
lyons - Member

oh yeah, another company once asked me to go from one job to 'help for a couple of hours' at another job. I ended up working a 25 hour shift. Then my boss got angry when i asked him to pay for a hotel, as i didnt really fancy driving through central london in the rush hour after that...

Posted 2 years ago #
yossarian - Member

I am fairly sure it is an absolute

its not absolute

Daily rest

Under the Working Time Regulations 1998, regulation 10, a worker is entitled to a rest period of 11 consecutive hours rest in each 24 hour period during which he works for his employer.

However, there are a number of special circumstances in which the entitlement to rest periods does not apply, for example, where the activities involve a need for continuity of service or production or where there is a foreseeable surge of activity. Also, if a shift worker changes shift, it may not be possible for them to take their full rest entitlement before starting the new pattern of work. In such a case the entitlement to daily and weekly rest does not apply.

Posted 2 years ago #
TandemJeremy - Member

Those are some of the exemptions - non of which apply in this case and even then you have the right to the compensatory rest. Is that not old advice that has been superseded anyway following various court cases. I don't think the shift worker one applies now - I know both in the NHS and police they always get the 11 hrs off - even if a shift runs over you start the next day late to compensate

Posted 2 years ago #
yossarian - Member

http://www.hse.gov.uk/roadsafety/practical.htm

oh and the travel issue is a hot one from an H & S perspective.

Posted 2 years ago #
yossarian - Member

Is that not old advice that has been superseded anyway following various court cases

not according to the HSE & DTI.

In any case I'd suggest the OP calls 0845 345 0055 (HSE hotline) and gets their opinion.

Posted 2 years ago #
sweepy - Member

"TandemJeremy - Member
Those are some of the exemptions - non of which apply in this case and even then you have the right to the compensatory rest. Is that not old advice that has been superseded anyway following various court cases. I don't think the shift worker one applies now - I know both in the NHS and police they always get the 11 hrs off - even if a shift runs over you start the next day late to compensate"

Not in the NHS I work in

Posted 2 years ago #