[Closed] Why don't the North Koreans revolt against their leader/government ?

Combination of fear, misinformation, and guns pointed at them.

1 million strong brainwashed / conditioned army?

i think we should be concentrating on revolting against our own government and not really be bothering about someone else's problems.

Even the people in the army must hate it so they could help

I seem to remember those in the army get better treatment. I'd wager that the collapse of the regime their is inevitable, no idea when that'll happen.

Although the more high level executions that occur it'll probably happen sooner rather than later.

A few deaths on the way for a country of freedom cant be a bad thing ?

Unless you are one of the dead. Off you pop over there and let us know how you get on.

It wont happen. You are 20yrs old. For 20yrs you have been told about the Dear Leader daily.

[img] [/img]

Off you pop over there and let us know how you get on.

I wasn't offering !

There will be no curiosity, no enjoyment of the process of life. All competing pleasures will be destroyed. But always — do not forget this, Winston — always there will be the intoxication of power, constantly increasing and constantly growing subtler. Always, at every moment, there will be the thrill of victory, the sensation of trampling on an enemy who is helpless. If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever.We control life, Winston, at all its levels. You are imagining that there is something called human nature which will be outraged by what we do and will turn against us. But we create human nature. Men are infinitely malleable

1984 George Orwell

For the same reasons we don't.

Most of them are brainwashed into believing in the system. There was a documentary I watched a while back about NK, absolutely fascinating. An American charity took a cataract removal machine to the country and just spent day after day restoring people's sight. The machine wasn't expensive or complicated but NK didn't have a single one in the whole country.

One woman came in, been blind for 20yrs, had the operation and could see again, she rushed over to the giant painting of the dear leader and broke down in front of it. She was shouting and throwing her arms in the air thanking the dear leader for restoring her sight. The journalist spoke to her and said, actually, this is a cheap operation that American people have paid for you to have as your government won't give it to you. Without a moments hesitation she turned to the painting, broke down again and started shouting thanks to the dear leader for allowing the Americans to come!

Total brainwashing.

I used to be in the North Korean army. To be honest, I found it all a bit seoul destroying.

Total brainwashing

it certainly seems to have worked on you

I don't think they are all entirely convinced by Dear Leader

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/story-of-a-former-officer-who-organizes-escapes-from-north-korea-a-928228.html

Rusty Spanner - Member
For the same reasons we don't.

Thats a bit of a juvenile remark our lives are very different, are we starving live in fear etc...NO

A few deaths on the way for a country of freedom cant be a bad thing ? (worked for other countries)

Even the people in the army must hate it so they could help

Well from what I saw when I was there a lot of people really do love their country and they don't want to overthrow their government, they actually like they system that they have and are deeply suspicious of all outsiders especially the west.

What makes you think that the army hate the set up? If you want to understand why people do what they do then you can't just apply your opinions and reasoning to it as you'll only end up getting it wrong. You have to understand why people will think the way they do, then you might stand a chance of understanding the situation properly.

A few deaths, your's, your children's? it may be worth the risk if you believe there is any hope, but when the state is so all controlling it is hard to see anything else, other than perhaps escape to the South.

Revolutions aren't exactly an easy option look at Syria.

piemonster - Member
Combination of fear, misinformation, and guns pointed at them.

This, this and this.^^ Oh and the fact that they seem to be starving would leave very little will to have a scrap if you ask me.

Well from what I saw when I was there a lot of people really do love their country and they don't want to overthrow their government, they actually like they system that they have and are deeply suspicious of all outsiders especially the west.

What makes you think that the army hate the set up? If you want to understand why people do what they do then you can't just apply your opinions and reasoning to it as you'll only end up getting it wrong. You have to understand why people will think the way they do, then you might stand a chance of understanding the situation properly.

Maybe you only met the people that liked it, did you meet all of the population and ask them ? You my friend are as brain washed as I !

For revolution to happen the masses need to congregate and in order to do that they need to communicate with other people who feel the same way and they cannot do that because the state controls all media.

I feel sorry for so much of humanity living in fear and poverty and we need to keep perspective about what a fantastic life we all lead.

It's because they fear the alternative. To illustrate democracy the government play them a constantly looped video of Dave and George Osborne guffawing at each other.

Is this what you want? Is it?!!!

trailmonkey - Member
Total brainwashing
it certainly seems to have worked on you

Que?

There needs to be a North Korean version of Nelson Mandela

(worked for other countries)

Which ones?

How do you organise a revolution? I don't know how NK is organised, but I'm guessing it is similar to Soviet Russia or East Germany - the KGB or Stasi will have infiltrated every part of society, and you can't really trust anyone... I don't suppose there's much in the way of Twitter or similar to provide a relatively anonymous means of organisation, either.

If it happens, it'll be either from the top or as the result of massive rioting (caused by famine or whatever) and a subsequent collapse of civil society.

Most of them are brainwashed into believing in the system. There was a documentary I watched a while back about NK, absolutely fascinating. An American charity took a cataract removal machine to the country and just spent day after day restoring people's sight. The machine wasn't expensive or complicated but NK didn't have a single one in the whole country.

One woman came in, been blind for 20yrs, had the operation and could see again, she rushed over to the giant painting of the dear leader and broke down in front of it. She was shouting and throwing her arms in the air thanking the dear leader for restoring her sight. The journalist spoke to her and said, actually, this is a cheap operation that American people have paid for you to have as your government won't give it to you. Without a moments hesitation she turned to the painting, broke down again and started shouting thanks to the dear leader for allowing the Americans to come!

I watched this last night again actually.

They ALL ran up to the photo of their leader and said the same thing.

Read "Nothing to Envy", that will give a good insight into how deep rooted the dictatorship is in the average citizen's life/mind/heart.

mogrim - Member

How do you organise a revolution? I don't know how NK is organised

^^^^^

Maybe you only met the people that liked it, did you meet all of the population and ask them ?

Well of course I only met the people that supported it. It's a closed society so they are obviously only going to let people see those who support the regime. My point it is that you are looking at the situation from the outside with no real knowledge of the country assuming that they will think like us and saying "why aren't they more like us" when the truth is that they don't think like us and have not been brought up to think for themselves so they won't think as we do.

mogrim - Member

If it happens, it'll be either from the top or as the result of massive rioting (caused by famine or whatever) and a subsequent collapse of civil society.

It's likely to be something of the sort you suggest.

Mohamed Bouazizi was a 26 year old street vendor, his suicide in protest at the harassment he received from corrupt Tunisian police officers sparked the Arab Spring. It's easy to imagine a similar incident in North Korea...somebody roughed up by the security forces in a provincial town, local protests, a policeman lynched, a crackdown and reprisals, mass street battles, local garrison mutinies etc etc

'Under the loving care of the fatherly leader' is a very good book which starts just before the civil war and follow the rise of the dictatorship to the modern god-king style thing they've got going now.

The dynasty is very adept at blaming external forces for all problems.

When I heard this morning than the Number Two of an unelected regime that was hell bent on making the lives of its subjects an utter misery had been executed, even I thought that was harsh treatment of Nick Clegg.

Well of course I only met the people that supported it. It's a closed society so they are obviously only going to let people see those who support the regime. My point it is that you are looking at the situation from the outside with no real knowledge of the country assuming that they will think like us and saying "why aren't they more like us" when the truth is that they don't think like us and have not been brought up to think for themselves so they won't think as we do.

Fair point...hug and make up ?

Anyone suspected of revolutionary thinking is locked up or worse:

Many prisoners of the camp were born there under North Korea's "three generations of punishment". This means anyone found guilty of committing a crime, which could be as simple as trying to escape North Korea, would be sent to the camp along with that person's entire family. The subsequent two generations of family members would be born in the camp and must also live their entire lives and die there

Arab spring was different. Societies may have been various degrees of oppressive and corrupt, but were more open than NK. Also, tribal factions within countries in N Africa and exiting tensions all helped. And access to internet, social media, not available in NK.

And it didn't end nicely everywhere, lots died in Libya and it's pretty lawless now, and Syria is an ongoing disaster.

Not saying it's impossible, but it would seem hard to organise.

How did change happen in Cambodia post Khymer Rouge?

Just like the fall of Ceausescu, or even the Berlin wall, something will happen out of the blue and the whole rotten edifice will collapse, the question is when?
Maybe a natural disaster, maybe an army regiment will mutiny setting up a chain reaction, I fail to believe in my lifetime that NK will stay the same.
To keep that sort of state in place takes conviction and total commitment by thousands of people, and lets face it, we humans are not good at that, not in the numbers required to keep this show running.

Even if it did, there is also the qustion to be considered of how a dying regime would react. The chances are that they would decide to cause as much damage as possble to South Korea, Japan, and China. Even if the majority of those orders were ingnored, it would only take one loyalist to unleash hell upon the region.

Interesting times indeed...

Very interesting program about NK the other day, filmed on secret cameras by a Chinese smuggler who distributes mainstream movies, wind up radios and laptops to people to try and educate them about the outside world. The lengths people go to to try and get out of the country is astonishing all whilst running the risk of 1 out of every 3 people you know being poised to grass you up to the police about your incorrect thoughts. There does seem to be a slow movement towards an air of distrust of Kim Jong-Un, lots of higher echelon folk questioning his abilities due to his lack of experience. Judging by his Uncle's demise it seems he is dealing with this problem though.

Also a lot of Stockholm Syndrome and fear of the future I would imagine. Even dissidents cried when Stalin died according to Solzhenitsyn (iirc). I seem to remember reading that even if news is patchy from overseas, people in North Korea do get smuggled South Korean DVDs and rumors. They must have heard about the disaster that's hit ordinary Russians over the last twenty years and there are plenty of peasants in difficulty in China - both neighbours. Breaking up the Soviet Union is great if you're Estonian, less stellar if you're a Turkmenistani...

"Total brainwashing."

Brainwashing or just the right thing to say when you know there are informers hanging around?

[url= http://www.vice.com/the-vice-guide-to-travel/vice-guide-to-north-korea-1-of-3 ]The Vice guide to North Korea[/url]

It's the world's most militarized country, isn't it? Given that the forces there are relatively well looked after, we can assume they would remain loyal to the state.

So how would you overthrow that?

I read a book about the US Special Ops Group (S.O.G) during the Vietnam war. They played all kinds of tricks to get people questioning the regime*.

They'd hide incriminating evidence in the possesions of upstanding, honest members of the community, then get them shopped to the authorities. When that person and their family were taken away it would make people doubt the powers that be as everyone knew that he was a good bloke. "If they're taking him off for 'reeducation' when the whole town know's he's done nothing wrong then what's to stop me being taken away too?"

They also used to pick people up, bundle them onto (really fast) boats and take them to South Vietnam. They'd pretend they were still in North Vietnam (we were only on the boat for an hour, so how could we have got all the way to South Vietnam. They'd pretend that they had a secret rebel enclave with loads of food, clean clothes etc hidden in the North, then they'd get back on the boat and drop the person back in the North to spread the word and sow the seeds of doubt.

*I can't remember how it ended, I presume it worked and 'we' won, right?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/a-digital-escape-from-north-koreas-secret-state-kim-jongun-faces-threat-from-undercover-films-posted-on-the-web-8931494.html

I can't remember how it ended, I presume it worked and 'we' won, right?

Ha! It's a lasting irony that western (mostly US) interference in the far east either directly led to or strongly influenced China, N Korea, Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia becoming communist.

I read a book about the US Special Ops Group (S.O.G) during the Vietnam war. They played all kinds of tricks to get people questioning the regime

Also, lots of other, non-civilian stuff. Like sneaking into arms dumps and hiding exploding rounds among the Chinese ammunition. Thgat got the Vietnamese doubting their allies. The ammo they gave us keeps exploding and killing us. But theirs never does it. Are they deliberately giving us rubbish stuff and saving the safe stuff for themselves?

Yeah, yeah.... You 're all slagging it off, focussing on the whole brainwashing, and ruthless oppression stuff, but let's look at the positives.

Did you see them build a whole ski resort in, like, a frickin week!!!! Just cos chubby chops mentioned he fancied a crack at snowboarding!!!

We should be doing that here. HS2? 45 Billion quid plus? Not any more!!!

Oi!!!! Dole scum!! Turn that Jeremy Kyle off!!!! Put that Stella down!!!! Pick that shovel up!!! And get ****ing digging!!! Now!!!!

piemonster - Member

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/a-digital-escape-from-north-koreas-secret-state-kim-jongun-faces-threat-from-undercover-films-posted-on-the-web-8931494.html

Interesting article. The Young Pretender's slide from power will be a very absorbing watch over the next year or so...

Oh, and
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/13/north-korea-jang-song-thaek-execution?CMP=twt_gu

North Korea accused Jang Song-thaek of being 'careerist and trickster'

• Pyongyang statement 'justifies' execution of Kim's uncle
• Jang accused of plotting to overthrow leadership
• Described as 'despicable human scum … worse than a dog'

unfitgeezer - Member

Rusty Spanner - Member
For the same reasons we don't.

Thats a bit of a juvenile remark our lives are very different, are we starving live in fear etc...NO

I know our lives are very different.
The reasons why we don't revolt are, however, exactly the same.

If you disagree, tell me why.

I know our lives are very different.
The reasons why we don't revolt are, however, exactly the same.

If you disagree, tell me why.

You tell me why ?

And you called ME juvenile?
😀

I'm perfectly prepared to enter into a constructive debate on the subject.

Once you've made your mind up, let me know and we can skip together, hand in hand along the road of reason.

If not, we'll just hurl insults at each other.
My turn - your auntie smells of sprouts and gargles ocelot wee.

Wow its the playground debating society, just out of interest whose dad is the hardest

Oh shut up, we're enjoying it.

[img] [/img]

Rusty Spanner - Member
And you called ME juvenile?

I only asked the question as to why they dont revolt I never said I had the answers !
But like any post on here the one asking the question is always the accused.

Junkyard - lazarus
Wow its the playground debating society, just out of interest whose dad is the hardest

Shut it or I'll take your apple

Any rebels with enough arms and brutality to overthrow a heavily militarized government would probably make a pretty brutal militarized government themselves.

Wow its the playground debating society

[img] [/img]

😉

[b]

CaptainFlashheart

Help a fellow North of the river Londoner...for the sake of the children if nothing else

😳

😀

Any rebels with enough arms and brutality to overthrow a heavily militarized government would probably make a pretty brutal militarized government themselves.

Leave Dear Leader alone ...

Please do not disturb a peaceful nation [b][u]unless you want to feed them for the rest of your life[/u][/b].

N.Korea should forever remain as a close nation and outsiders should mind their own business.

Long Live Dear Leader!!!

Down with the zombie maggot pig dogs!!!

🙄

The reasons why we don't revolt are, however, exactly the same

No they aren't.

The reason they don't revolt is that they know they will instantly get shot and their families will be persecuted. (Obviously this only applies to those that feel that they are getting a terrible deal in the first place, which I'm not convinced is the majority)

We don't revolt because, despite your political leanings, you'll know deep down that we don't have it so bad, and that things could be much much worse. However, if there was a real sense of prevailing injustice in this country I'd be fairly confident of going out on the street to protest, safe in the knowledge that A: I might be listened to and B: I wouldn't instantly be shot

The threat of death is not the main driver not to revolt, death could be the better option. How about mass prison / labour camps where starvation, rape and murder are daily highlights. Camps with no prospect of you ever leaving. You could be sent there even if the thought you wanted to revolt, you don't actually need to initiate anything. And just for good measure, they will also lock away all of your family, kids, grandparents, the lot. Guilt by association.

I wouldn't risk it.

I think you should try a revolution /overthrow the govt and then get back to us on that one

you really think they wont resist with [lethal] force?

We can have greater freedom to protest here [ bit only as long as they know it wont change anything] but we have no more freedom to really protest....see a general strike for example

[img] [/img]

Heck even America could get involved !

[img] [/img]

+ 1 tpbiker

Ha! It's a lasting irony that western (mostly US) interference in the far east either directly led to or strongly influenced China, N Korea, Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia becoming communist.

I'm a little rusty on recent Asian history but isn't it mostly French colonialism that resulted in Vietnam (North), Laos and Cambodia going communist, what with most of the leaders being educated in Paris in the 30's and picking up their Marxist leanings there?
As for China, I think a civil war and the winner being backed by Stalin probably played a bigger part in them going 'pinko commie'.
North Korea was just because the Russian had covered that ground when WW2 stopped and decided to install someone they trusted to run the shop, ditto the yanks in the South.

The main interference by the US started to happen during the cold war, it had lead isolationist policies up until WW2.

Oops sorry, err diverting from the thread a little, my dad built a wooden bike with 100 wooden gears, what did your's do?

there are some truly horrific stories to come out of N Koreas prison camps
people who oppose the regime end up there
http://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/20169796/new-satellite-images-show-scale-of-north-koreas-prison-camps/

and it seems they are being expanded by kim jongun

I'm a little rusty on recent Asian history but isn't it mostly French colonialism that resulted in Vietnam (North), Laos and Cambodia going communist, what with most of the leaders being educated in Paris in the 30's and picking up their Marxist leanings there?
As for China, I think a civil war and the winner being backed by Stalin probably played a bigger part in them going 'pinko commie'.

Cambodia: Heavily bombed by US in the "secret war". US-backed government overthrown by Khmer Rouge and communist Vietnamese forces.
Laos: Heavily bombed by US in the "secret war". US-backed government overthrown by insurrection and communist Vietnamese forces.
S. Vietnam: US-backed government overthrown by Soviet-backed communist N. Vietnam and Vietcong following defeat in the war.
China: US-backed Kuomintang overthrown by Soviet-backed communist forces.

Just watching a report on the news about this. He has already been airbrushed out of official videos and photographs. Fascinating and frightening

tpbiker - Member
However, if there was a real sense of prevailing injustice in this country I'd be fairly confident of going out on the street to protest, safe in the knowledge that A: I might be listened to and B: I wouldn't instantly be shot

unfitgeezer - Member

I only asked the question as to why they dont revolt I never said I had the answers !
But like any post on here the one asking the question is always the accused.

I know. I couldn't resist. 😀

I agree about the freedoms we have in this country - despite what you might think I'm very proud of our tolerance and sense of justice.

But we're talking about a revolt, not a spot of light looting or trustafarian hellraising.

If there was a chance of a populist revolt causing any kind of disruption to the status quo, it would be violently repressed.

Really, there is no difference in the way either government would react in the face of mass armed insurrection:
The British media would resume it's role as a government mouthpiece, individual freedom would be ruthlessly repressed and the armed forces and police force would be called on to ensure that both civil disobedience and legitimate protest would be met by violent force without the slightest hope of any accountability.

And that's the way most people in the UK actually like it.

The problem is, as a nation we're actually really good at mass violence, civil war and insurrection.
We lost a sizeable percentage of our population last time we tried it.

The British media would resume it's role as a government mouthpiece, individual freedom would be ruthlessly repressed and the armed forces and police force would be called on to ensure that both civil disobedience and legitimate protest would be met by violent force without the slightest hope of any accountability.

Many say we're getting close to this already.

I think you should try a revolution /overthrow the govt and then get back to us on that one

why would I want to do that? I know how good we have it.

you really think they wont resist with [lethal] force?

Well yeah actually, id be fairly confident (on the assumption that the overthrow of the govenment was attempted by non violent means).

We can have greater freedom to protest here [ bit only as long as they know it wont change anything] but we have no more freedom to really protest....see a general strike for example

Sorry I don't agree with that at all. Either way I can't beleive anyone would argue that in the UK we don't have a greater freedom to 'really protest' than in North Korea. The two countries aren't comparable in any way.

recent stories in the press about x amounts of people dying from the cold this winter, food bank use rising alarmingly, and children born into poverty, could be reported by a foreign regime as Britain being on the brink of problems not too dissimilar to NK's....depends how you spin it, innit

Goodness me - I've just been reading about the place. A dozen muscians were executed by machine gun fire in August on alledged charges of violating ponography laws - one of them, Hyon Song-wol, was a former girlfriend of Kim Jong-un. Their families and other band members were made to watch the executions, then banged up as they are guilty by association, which seems a bit harsh. Even more eyebrow-raising, Kim Chol, a Vice Minister in the army, was stood on a spot that a mortar had been zeroed in on, and was then mortared to death.

Now I know why people worry about them having the bomb...

• Described as 'despicable human scum … worse than a dog'

pondo - Member
Goodness me - I've just been reading about the place.....

WTF??

Where did you read this?

lilchris - Member
• Described as 'despicable human scum … worse than a dog'
Delicious?

At the rate Supreme Leader is handling the matters of the nation he will soon turn his land into mass prison camp. Hurray! Down with the zombie maggot pig dogs!

Supreme Leader is doing everyone a favour by solving the problem of overcrowding without the need for foreign aid.

Bow down and salute Supreme Leader's indefatigability and admire his chubby waistline.

😈

Rusty Spanner - Member
For the same reasons we don't.

I don't think the North Koreans live a life of comfortable consumer excess! 😀

seosamh77 - Member
Rusty Spanner - Member
For the same reasons we don't.
I don't think the North Koreans live a life of consumer excess!

Yes, they do. They are overeating ...