By “We” i mean both northern european countries with shitty, miserable climates and English speaking countries in general….

Britain, Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, Sweden, Norway, even France, Italy and Spain (for the most part ;)) are all industrious, affluent countries. the same can be said for the States, Canada, NZ, Australia and SA.

why when you head south or east from (central) Europe do things deteriorate? am looking at going to Greece in summer and it got me thinking. looking at a map Greece is at the end of peninsula of countries that i have little desire to visit; Albania, Macedonia….

South America has been populated for as long, and even longer in places, than North America, yet it is still under-developed and lawless (relatively speaking). there are plenty of Germans, British and other peoples of industrious nations settled there.

why the great divide?

I don’t think we are better than anyone.
I think ‘we’, the English are probably the most hated and the most horrible country after the yanks.
I can understand why too.

Its too bloody hot as you get nearer the equator to be productive so they all sit around being lazy and get sweet FA done.

Probably because we “invented” the industrial revolution in our little part of the world and spread it out from here.

why the great divide?

It has been argued that as the climate gets more inhospitable, man has had to become more resourceful / productive, hence the further north you get, the higher the state of industrialisation etc…..

I think ‘we’, the English are probably the most hated and the most horrible country after the yanks.

I dunno I think the Russians are certainly catching up. 🙂

You have to work harder to keep warm up North.

I’d say that the climate in large parts of Africa, North and South America were fairly inhospitable.

Why was North America and Canada not industrialised when Europeans arrived there?

I don’t think we are better than anyone.
I think ‘we’, the English are probably the most hated and the most horrible country after the yanks.
I can understand why too.

Really? Really really?
That makes me genuinely sad to hear you say that.
Because, mainly, I totally disagree. I’ve been to enough places in the world to know it’s not true. And if that’s what you really believe then, well, I dunno. I give up. 🙁

So this American consultant was on holiday in the tropics and one day whilst walking on the beach, he came across a local native family eating some fish that the mother had cooked over a makeshift fire made by her husband.

Being naturally relaxed and friendly types, they invited the consultant to partake in the feast.

He found the taste of the fish so amazing that he asked the father where he got it.

“I fished today and caught it just off the beach here”.

Con: “Listen, with my help you could be making a lot of money from this fish. If you catch more of it, I’ll set up a company right here and we’ll sell as much as we can. You’ll be much better off!”

Fisherman: “O.K. What then?”

Con: “Well, when you’ve started earning enough, you can employ more people to catch more fish and make even more money. Of course, you won’t have to fish anymore…”

Fm: “Erm. O.K. What then?”

Con: “Well, with my guidance, you’ll be so well off that you can employ more people in the nearby islands and export your fish abroad. I’m sure they’d go mad for it!”

Fm: “Well. That sounds good. What then?”

Con: “You’ll be so rich that you can then retire completely from all the hard work……

……. and go fishing….”.

really really.

my sister had a shop in Paphos for a few years, Cypriot people dislike us for being rude and pushy.
I deal with Turks and eastern European blokes, on a daily basis. they think we are rude, slobbish and lazy.
and let’s not even mention what most muslim people/countries think about us.

I think that this is highly controversial.

However there is a correlation between climate and ‘development’ for want of a better word. Business, industry, finance, etc etc. If your climate is not trying to kill you and provides you with plenty of food, you don’t need to spend all your time looking for it and can do stuff like write songs, paint, invent machines, financial institutions and the like.

However good climates cover large parts of the world of course not just Western Europe.

Greece is at the end of peninsula of countries that i have little desire to visit; Albania, Macedonia

A little history would tell you that these places have not always been backwaters!

my sister had a shop in Paphos for a few years, Cypriot people dislike us for being rude and pushy.
I deal with Turks and eastern European blokes, on a daily basis. they think we are rude, slobbish and lazy.

Pot……kettle…

There are those who say that the nearer you are to the equator, the longer the growing season and the less need you have to plan ahead for the winter by growing food, then finding ways to preserve it. This would explain why northern countries have such a variety of means of preserving food – drying, salting, smoking, pickling, sugaring, in order to prevent spoilage and would mean those people near the Polar regions had developed the habit of thinking six months in advance, giving them an intellectual advantage.

When the Vikings settled the west coast of Greenland they set up two colonies but both failed, mainly because they insisted on continuing with their pastoral lifestyle and ignored Inuit hunting technology like kayaks and spears, which would have given them deadly efficient access to a source of protein that was available all the year round. Interestingly the colony that failed first was a few hundred miles to the north of the other, meaning that it enjoyed fewer hours of the sunlight that they needed to grow their crops. In a knife-edge existence, those few hours mattered.

But of course the PC lobby would cry that equatorial lifestyles are the fault of colonialists, etc. etc. so I’m not saying anything.

LHS…?

I think we’re generally more productive as it gives us more scope for moaning. Something we’re clearly the best on the planet at

But of course the PC lobby would cry that equatorial lifestyles are the fault of colonialists, etc. etc. so I’m not saying anything.

Eh? Did you want to claim that some countries are less developed because certain races are genetically inferior?

Bloody PC brigade….

Ancient Egypt thought they were better
Rome thought they were better
I wonder if in a thousand years time we will be thought of as better or the people who fubar’d the world for profit..

By all accounts for a hated country other nations perception of our positive/negative nature seems pretty perverse…

Anyway, I’m better than everyone else. I cant vouch for the rest of you.

We are neither better nor hated (in the grander scheme of things)

Though mostly poor now China was once pretty advanced and obviously growing well in recent times – albeit with the odd hiccup. I wonder if their complex writing system held them back as printing must have been a problem at a key part of their evolution. Now that computers can deal with their writing OK that’s not really an issue.

Not that Mao helped them much.

Globalti… you been reading Jared Diamond’s book Collapse?

i have my own theories along the same lines as Globalti.

another interesting book on the subject is Guns, Germs and Steel, also by Jared Diamond. long, but well written and in places eye opening.

I don’t think we are better than anyone.
I think ‘we’, the English are probably the most hated and the most horrible country after the yanks.
I can understand why too.

I think it was probably the whole colonialism thing, you know, where we took over entire countries, and made their ways of life and religions in some places illegal, made slaves of their populations and all….

mudshark – Member

Though mostly poor now China was once pretty advanced

read Why the West Rules for Now….. also interesting.

really really.
my sister had a shop in Paphos for a few years, Cypriot people dislike us for being rude and pushy.

My last boss was Greek. Never heard that.

I deal with Turks and eastern European blokes, on a daily basis. they think we are rude, slobbish and lazy.

Not so many Turks, but I work with a Hungarian guy. And I’ve spent 20 years in construction with many many Eastern European drivers….. Never heard that either.

The Americans don’t think like that either, not the ones I’ve talked to. AND the Yanks are some of the very nicest people I’ve ever met in general. Same for the Indians. They love the UK. I read a very flattering (to the UK) article in an Indian newspaper whilst I was there.
My previous Iranian boss loved the UK too, as it seems do most immigrants IME.
I think you just focus on the negative to be honest. Personally I love the UK. I love to travel, but I’m always glad to come home. England is my favourite place in the world. I love it. 🙂

EDIT
Just seen Stoners graph. Seems reasonable to me.

We are neither better nor hated (in the grander scheme of things)

Agreed. 🙂

I stopped reading Collapse half way through as I got sooooo bored of him explaining simple concepts in excruciating detail. Yes, they used up all their resources and ran into trouble. Doesn’t really need 80 pages to explain.

Globalti… you been reading Jared Diamond’s book Collapse?

i have my own theories along the same lines as Globalti.

another interesting book on the subject is Guns, Germs and Steel, also by Jared Diamond. long, but well written and in places eye opening.

*cough* Yes, an excellent book and I must get hold of his Guns book. If you enjoyed Collapse, get hold of Seeds of Change by Henry Hobhouse, a similarly fascinating read on human history.

littlemisspanda – Member
I think it was probably the whole colonialism thing, you know, where we took over entire countries, and made their ways of life and religions in some places illegal, made slaves of their populations and all….

Wow, I take it back. We must be really hated then in all the ex-colonies. Nothing positive from the experience at all?

ignoring the OP’s inflammatory bilge about “we”, the disparity in development between geographic regions is an interesting topic.

Reading list please.

England is my favourite place in the world. I love it.

PP, it is mine too, but I was not talking about me, I was meaning the country on a whole.

We must be really hated then in all the ex-colonies. Nothing positive from the experience at all?

We did “civilize” the natives of course, and bring them Jeebus….and cricket.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso[/video]

At least Britain had a more benign attitude towards her former colonies than did Portugal for example, who systematically destroyed the infrastructures of Angola and Mozambique on departing in order to ensure that they would fail.

At least Britain had a more benign attitude towards her former colonies than did Portugal for example

Oh, ok, then that makes it all alright.

This book: The Revenge of Geography, by Robert Kaplan, is pretty intriguing. Obviously Kaplan is a US foreign policy guru and fairly persuaded of US exceptionalism, but it is a pleasing reminder of how the locii of power have shifted around the globe, and there is a run-down of the thinking about what geography and climate favours the development of economic power.

I’m not sure that the British or Britain are universally hated, we’re relatively popular in some countries/regions, and less popular in others.

Is are imperial past to blame?

I suppose the Spanish are also universally hated – they all but wiped out the Incas. And the Dutch, they were keen on colonisation.

But I’m not sure that’s what the OP was asking…I think he was referring to the relative condition of infrastructure, buildings etc in other countries (I think). Is anyone aware of a Greek Island that doesn’t look a little bit like a building site?

From what I understand, in Greece, each shop owner is responsible for maintaining the pavement outside their shop. That’s why some pavements are falling apart (not sure where I heard this).

That can’t be the only reason…I suppose the heat might make maintaining concrete/tarmac difficult, so you see a lot more cracks and potholes. The global recession hasn’t helped, although the issue has existed for a lot longer.

Much of it is doubtless due to the history of plunder and pillage which set the scene for the current trends in global wealth and power… a massive headstart which makes it very hard for developing countries to compete, especially since…

Within recent history

Evidence points to it being based on the work of famed Bildeberg group member:

Henry Kissinger

and especially:

National Security Study Memorandum 200

which is basically a framework for utilizing intelligence services to destabilize competing countries to ensure the continued dominance of the Western Powers.

Similar to industrial espionage, but more like global espionasty

I’ve lived abroad and travelled enough to know that, while Britain may not have the best climate or lifestyle or standard of living if you measure that by material possessions, it has a completely unique culture and an extraordinary level of competence in many things.

Years ago I was listening to a programme on Radio 4 called “Does he take sugar?” which was a weekly show for disabled people. They were covering a conference on the south coast for people suffering a certain type of blindness. They interviewed a French bloke who had travelled over from northern France to attend the conference. He explained that he listened to Radio 4 from his home and had heard about the conference and because he suffered the same condition, had decided to travel over to attend. “What British people don’t realise,” he said, “is that in France we simply don’t have charities and self-help organisations for disabled people like you do in Britain. The British are unique in having the world’s greatest number by a long shot, of charities and organisations dedicated to supporting the less fortunate.”

That’s what is special about the UK.

And the pies Globalti. You forgot the pies. Thats another thing that great about this country 😀