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No naming and shaming at this stage but I've cracked my hardtail and hitting a brick wall with the manufacturer. Genuinely gutted as I loved the frame and have another bike from the same manufacturer who I'm beginning to lose the love for.
Basic facts... frame has cracked on the seat tube where a brace joins it from the top tube. The seat post (LEV) has always been in the frame a few mm beyond the minimum insert markings.
Frame is a large, I'm 6ftish so bang in the middle of the size chart.
They're saying the minimum insert markings on the post are irrelevant and the post should be 50mm beyond the intersection with the top tube*. Even with the post slammed this is impossible, as it would be with most dropper posts needing around 250mm of post inside the frame.
To me this suggests that using any dropper post on this frame/size combination automatically invalidates the warranty? This is despite their full builds being specced with the same post and in the photos on their website the posts definitely aren't slammed in the frame meaning they're unlikely the required 50mm below the top tube.
Any thoughts/tips on how best to proceed?
*still waiting to be told where I was supposed to find this info.
Well that bit is true. That's the limit for the post not the frame.They're saying the minimum insert markings on the post are irrelevant
[quote=nickjb ]
Well that bit is true. That's the limit for the post not the frame.Correct.They're saying the minimum insert markings on the post are irrelevant
I'd always recommend at least 30mm below the [i]bottom[/i] of the seat tube/top tube junction. 50mm seems a wee bit generous, but in the same ballpark
Was the seatpost supplied with the frame?
Thanks for clearing that bit up.
I guess it comes down to where/how you're supposed to find out the required insert for the frame then.
If the seatpost was supplied with the frame and it is genuinely impossible to get it in as far as their recommendation ( which I assume was in the owners manual?) then you have more of a case, but as above marks on post are for the post not the frame...
[quote=jamesfts ]I guess it comes down to where/how you're supposed to find out the required insert for the frame then.Ask.
Learn.
Get an expert to do it for you.
You can get longer Reverbs so they can be inserted further. I only realised this after I bought one and found out that it was only just long enough for me.
I've never thought about the minimum inserting mark on posts only being for the post and not the frame. I'll have to watch out for that on any other bikes I ride in the future. I guess it makes sense as the seat post company won't know what bike it's on. Food for thought.
Tom KP
Commencal Meta?
If it is important then I'd expect it to be in the manual. As scotroutes says at least 'a bit' below the top tube weld as a rule of thumb.I guess it comes down to where/how you're supposed to find out the required insert for the frame then.
I'd always recommend at least 30mm below the bottom of the seat tube/top tube junction. 50mm seems a wee bit generous, but in the same ballpark
Problem is with this particular frame design there is about 180mm of frame above the seat tube/top tube junction so finding a dropper that'll reach 50mm below that would be tough.
Was the seatpost supplied with the frame?
No but they spec it on their full builds.
And is there any mention in the owners manual about insertion depth?
180mm of frame above the seat tube? Over seven inches?
Commencal Meta?
You did what I did 🙂
Commencal Meta?
Yup, Meta HT
You did what I did 🙂
Yeah, didn't think it'd take much investigation work 😉
And is there any mention in the owners manual about insertion depth?
I'll have to dig it out and double check.
180mm of frame above the seat tube? Over seven inches?
165/170mm above, 180 is the mid point of the 2.
[quote=thegreatape ]
You did what I did
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high fives all the history lookers
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Is that the world's biggest gif? Had to wait 5 minutes for the post options to load in!
It seems Commencal are now just ignoring me.
The gory details - cracked Commencal Meta HT:
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😯
think its gone past [i]cracked[/i]
You really need to find out if any of the literature they give out with the frame states this. If not then you have a case I think.
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Haha love it Brant - would be perfect for midget with incredibly long arms... I'll get the Dremel out!
You really need to find out if any of the literature they give out with the frame states this. If not then you have a case I think.
Trouble is I'm buggered if I can find the paperwork and it's not available on their website so relying on them sending me something (having approached them using a different email address).
jamesfts - what wheels size and frame size is this, and how old?
2014 frame, the last one before the added front mech and bottle cage mounts.
27.5 and large - out of interest why do you want to know?
2014 frame, the last one before the added front mech and bottle cage mounts.27.5 and large.
Not sure if it will help but have a 2015 Meta HT 29er in XL and I have all the paperwork at home. Happy to check it out for you and see if it says anything?
Interestingly I was very surprised when my XL only came with a 350mm seatpost which I ride right on the insertion limit.
(better get a longer one!)
Haha love it Brant - would be perfect for midget with incredibly long arms... I'll get the Dremel out!
The problem I have with frames of this style (which is why I prefer a bent top tube) is that this style isn't really a dropped top tube, it's an extended seat tube.
Keith Bontrager used to always recommend that on his frames, a seatpost should extend a half inch below the lowest point of the top tube/seat tube joint. And on this style of frame, I think the top tube is the lowest bit.
It gets more complicated/worse on some models because the internal profile of the seat tube might be such that engaging more post doesn't really do anything. Because after a certain point, the post isn't touching/reinforcing the frame anyhow.
I certainly agree that the indication on a seatpost is for the "seatposts sake" and not the frame. I would want a to have a design such as this tested for fatigue with insertion to about the point the arrow on the back is positioned at - as per Keiths dimension, but for the upper "reinforcing" gusset rather than the top tube.
Or...
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If you could I'd really appreciate it, I'm not 100% sure I got anything with it but it may just be my memory. I recently (possibly stupidly now) bought a v3 frame fork and shock which came with no paperwor at all - I had to download manuals from Bos in the end.
No problem, I'll have a look later on and see if I can find any reference to it.
Think I'll also need to do some measurements because if the post needs to extend 1/2" into the frame below the actual top tube then I might need a seatpost that's well over 400mm
[Edit, my email is in my profile so if you drop me a line I can give you and update]
Thanks, will do.
The email I got through from Commencal states that it needs to be 50mm below the seat tube intersection... which is something like 250mm on my frame just to have it slammed. I think to be within their advised sizing and to get a usable saddle height on the large you'd need a post with about 450mm under the collar...
Edit: Thanks - email sent
...as per Keiths dimension, but for the upper "reinforcing" gusset rather than the top tube.
I did wonder if this may be the case and there is a bit of confusion with the translation but as they're no longer replying to emails it's hard to say.
Also worryingly (not my actual bike but same size) ...
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I'm glad [s]I'm a shortarse[/s] have relatively short legs despite being average height.
Not sure how helpful this is but I bought mine in basic stock spec from commencal direct. The geometry chart says the XL is suitable for riders of 6'2" and above and with a maximum inseam of 38.8".
I'll look at the measurements later but I suspect the stock seatpost supplied (350mm and stated as such in the spec sheet on their website) wouldn't conform to allow any of that if it needed to be 50mm below the seat tube.
they want the seatpost 50mm below the bottom top tube join?
it'd be hitting the shock!
Can you show where the bottom of the seatpost was on your frame?
Just had confirmation from Commencal that the seat post needs to be 50mm below the actual top tube not the bridge/brace - roughly 250mm into the frame.
I've just bought a Meta V4 and that came with no paperwork at all other than an invoice. Which is helpful.
I've a feeling mine was the same.
[i]Just had confirmation from Commencal that the seat post needs to be 50mm below the actual top tube not the bridge/brace[/i]
That's one way of never having to provide a warranty replacement frame.
Stupid, just stupid.
I'd check what seatposts they fit on built bikes and see if any of them would actually meet this criteria at a rideable height.
*makes note never to buy a commencal*
What a pile of * from a pile of * company. I really hope you get somewhere with it as they sound an appalling company to give money to.
[quote=jamesfts ]Just had confirmation from Commencal that the seat post needs to be 50mm below the actual top tube not the bridge/brace - roughly 250mm into the frame.
They only let the buyer know this after there is an issue, poor form I'd say. But I'd expect no more than that from Commencal.
Yeah. Having spoken to a few mates in the industry I'm not entirely surprised either.
"A shower of ©unts" is phrase used by a number of people now.
I remember the years they cracked regularly , 2008 to 2010 or 11 I think. Here we are in 2015 and they are still doing it.
It gets more complicated/worse on some models because the internal profile of the seat tube might be such that engaging more post doesn't really do anything. Because after a certain point, the post isn't touching/reinforcing the frame anyhow.
Yup - the ones where there's an internal sleeve so it matters sod-all how much post you have in there, only the top two inches are doing anything.
The other design that can be filed under "I have no idea what I'm doing" are the designs that don't have an internal shim, they have a thicker tube extension basically butt-welded on top of the seat tube. Seen several like that where the whole thing has just snapped off.
[url= http://kssuspension.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/LEV-tech.pdf ]KS Lev has min insertion mark at 110-130mm (if I got the correct Lev)[/url] Total possible insertion on the same drawing ranges from only 176-239mm
I'd ask an engineer to check two things:
How far down the seat tube is sized to accept a seat post, is it 50mm past the junction referred to?
Their opinion on HAZ toe-cracking contributing to the fault
Haha - I'll never be buying one of those then. What a crap design.
You might be better going for an angle of attack where you look to see if you can show that if you stick 230mm of seat post into the frame then you can't make it fit the height ranges that it's sold as fitting.