I do feel a bit of sympathy toward the Londoners who are today having to do without their Tube.

I do, however, feel a lot more sympathetic to the Tube drivers who are being lambasted for going on strike about changes to their working conditions. An entirely legal and above board way of showing your protest.

1: Who here is part of a trade Union?
2: If not, whould you join one if you could?

Me , yes to 1. But it’s not that good and I’m in it more for the legal protection if I need it.

Yup. Succesful strike for improved pay (and for improved conditions for some colleagues) a while back too.

I’ve not had much else from them in this job but I had them on speed-dial in the bank, just about every week we’d have them stepping in to stop some random madness because managers were encouraged to act like feudal lords. Massive help to me and my team.

Yes. Worked for a major insurer which sold our division to Churchill.

Initially the purchaser tried to remove our enhanced redundancy package during TUPE, saying they were a young and growing company, and wouldn’t conceive of making anyone redundant. Union which had a good working relationship with the original employer fought against this, and redundancy terms were retained.
Two years later of course Churchill was sold to RBS, and we got to make use of our retained redundancy package. Very grateful for the union then, even non members benefited from their negotiating.

When I started working, in NZ in the late 70’s, union membership was mandatory, except for management/self employed/conscientious objection across all industries.
How the times have changed.

1.No
2.Yes

I think the problem is that the public who use the tube have had thier patience worn thin by lots of strikes of tube worker wanting rises for already very well payed work, complaining about people being suspened for completely reasonble reasons and other random strike e.t.c.

1. Yes – I wish they’d get me a starting salary of £49,000!

1. Yes and rep at my place of work
2. After privatisation the union is improving its membership stats for the attack on out term and conditions in the next few years and beyond!

My union had provided legal aid on quite a few occasions when knocked off my bike!

1: No
2: Possibly

Yep and a union H&S rep.

The word’s ‘ungrateful bar stewards’ springs to mind.

Nearly £50k a year for driving a tube train – that’s double the average nurses salary!

After enduring transport chaos in London today resulting in the loss of a client meeting (and possibly some business for us), I’d personally sack the lot of them and give their jobs to someone who is grateful to have a job.

Totally out of order these guys being allowed to hold London and it’s people to ransome in this way. Their selfish actions must have cost businesses 10’s of millions of pounds today alone. Surely this money could be much better spent making a system that’s fully automatic in the first place (like Copenhagen), getting rid of the troublesome drivers all together so that this sort of thing can’t happen in the future.

If tens of millions of pounds worth of business depend upon them, are they not due some of that?

And the nhs and other public sector workers don’t?

If tens of millions of pounds worth of business depend upon them, are they not due some of that?

Are you serious – the tube drivers are there because these businesses (through rates) and us the public fund Transport for London!

And the nhs and other public sector workers don’t?

Well if they’re payed half what a tube driver earns, for doing way more work then I’d say they’re much more entitled to strike. I mean £50k for driving a mostly automatic tube train – hardly rocket science is it?

£50k FFS, that’s more than most doctors start on after 7 years of training 😯

And the nhs and other public sector workers don’t?

I didn’t say that they don’t. (I an a public sector worker.)

My mate drives a little (overground) train and earns more than me.

If tens of millions of pounds worth of business depend upon them, are they not due some of that?

Yes, exactly!
Very responsible job.

Union member here too.

in our society, there seems a general rule that, the more obviously one’s work benefits other people, the less one is likely to be paid for it. Again, an objective measure is hard to find, but one easy way to get a sense is to ask: what would happen were this entire class of people to simply disappear? Say what you like about nurses, garbage collectors, or mechanics, it’s obvious that were they to vanish in a puff of smoke, the results would be immediate and catastrophic. A world without teachers or dock-workers would soon be in trouble, and even one without science fiction writers or ska musicians would clearly be a lesser place. It’s not entirely clear how humanity would suffer were all private equity CEOs, lobbyists, PR researchers, actuaries, telemarketers, bailiffs or legal consultants to similarly vanish. (Many suspect it might markedly improve.) Yet apart from a handful of well-touted exceptions (doctors), the rule holds surprisingly well.

Tube drivers disappearing has an effect. Therefore it’s not a bullshit job and people with bullshit jobs get annoyed when they’re well paid.

Is there any chance a discussion about the incomes “deserved” by tube drivers/bankers/politicians can avoid being pegged to nurses’ or teachers’ respective pay levels?

agent007 – Member
The word’s ‘ungrateful bar stewards’ springs to mind.

Nearly £50k a year for driving a tube train – that’s double the average nurses salary!

After enduring transport chaos in London today resulting in the loss of a client meeting (and possibly some business for us), I’d personally sack the lot of them and give their jobs to someone who is grateful to have a job.

Totally out of order these guys being allowed to hold London and it’s people to ransome in this way. Their selfish actions must have cost businesses 10’s of millions of pounds today alone. Surely this money could be much better spent making a system that’s fully automatic in the first place (like Copenhagen), getting rid of the troublesome drivers all together so that this sort of thing can’t happen in the future.

Nah, your bosses should sack you and your colleagues and replace you all with computers.

Is there any chance a discussion about the incomes “deserved” by tube drivers/bankers/politicians can avoid being pegged to nurses’ or teachers’ respective pay levels?

Ok.

That’s £18k more than I get for being a Paramedic Manager.

It’s £13k more than I get, but I don’t have to spend all day in a tunnel staring at parallel lines demonstrating perspective.

some very clever PR going on here by Boris and the Tories to ensure that we’re all talking about tube drivers and their salaries.

It’s not just tube drivers on strike; they’re probably in the minority in fact. It’s also cleaners, security, support staff, blah blah blah, many of whom are on nothing like 40K a year, and are now being told to work nights and 25 out of every 26 weekends IIRC.

But somehow everyone is talking about the drivers and whether they’re worth it. Which suits the union-busters very nicely.

[/quote]agent007 – Member
The word’s ‘ungrateful bar stewards’ springs to mind.

Nearly £50k a year for driving a tube train – that’s double the average nurses salary!

After enduring transport chaos in London today resulting in the loss of a client meeting (and possibly some business for us), I’d personally sack the lot of them and give their jobs to someone who is grateful to have a job.

Totally out of order these guys being allowed to hold London and it’s people to ransome in this way. Their selfish actions must have cost businesses 10’s of millions of pounds today alone. Surely this money could be much better spent making a system that’s fully automatic in the first place (like Copenhagen), getting rid of the troublesome drivers all together so that this sort of thing can’t happen in the future.

Agent007 – you sound jealous (along with very ignorant too).
Just because most nurses etc are on half what tube drivers are on – is not any basis to knock them.
It does kinda ask the question why does the government value nurses so low though … again, nothing to do with tube drivers.

Ok.

That’s £18k more than I get for being a Paramedic Manager.

Touché.

Have a 1% payrise!

Is the DLR running? I think it won’t be long before the tube follows the DLR and goes automated.

doris5000 – Member

some very clever PR going on here by Boris and the Tories to ensure that we’re all talking about tube drivers and their salaries.

It’s not just tube drivers on strike; they’re probably in the minority in fact. It’s also cleaners, security, support staff, blah blah blah, many of whom are on nothing like 40K a year, and are now being told to work nights and 25 out of every 26 weekends IIRC.

But somehow everyone is talking about the drivers and whether they’re worth it. Which suits the union-busters very nicely.

QFT.

Hey guess what? If your daily life falls apart because someone goes on strike, then you should take them seriously.

If you feel nurses deserve more, let’s work on that.

I didn’t realise that only poor people were allowed to go on strike.

I work in Govan…… like working in a tunnel but much worse. Suppose I’ll go in demanding £70k tomorrow, which can’t make sense as I work in defence and we’re all making a fortune?

Totally out of order these guys being allowed to hold London and it’s people to ransome in this way. Their selfish actions must have cost businesses 10’s of millions of pounds today alone. Surely this money could be much better spent making a system that’s fully automatic in the first place (like Copenhagen), getting rid of the troublesome drivers all together so that this sort of thing can’t happen in the future.

Well surely all the shinearses who lost tens of millions of pounds today can work Sunday and get some of it back !

Have a 1% payrise!

It’s Ok we got one after striking.

If BBC website is accurate:
Tube drivers starting salary is £49,673 after 6 months training – 36 hr week and 43 days holiday.

Is the DLR running? I think it won’t be long before the tube follows the DLR and goes automated.

Lets hope so.

I didn’t realise that only poor people were allowed to go on strike.

Nope, but when you’re doing a job that requires just 6 months training (and if we’re honest anyone with less than half a brain could do it no problem), yet you’re paid double the average salary to do it, then striking smacks of pure ungratefulness to me.

There are plenty of hard working people in the country who would be grateful for the opportunity to earn just half of what these overpaid, over unionised idiots are demanding – without inconveniencing all of the rest of us in the process.

the strike probably has more to do with unions flexing their muscles and giving the Tories a poke in the eye than anything else but the tube drivers basically need sacking. If they really think they are hard done by when many of them sit in the cabs of trains that are already automated (central, victoria, jubilee) then they need a wake up call.

They already *start* on £50K, work 35 hour weeks, get 43 days annual leave (with a high rate of sickness absence on top of this taking time off for many drivers to close to 60 days a year), get unlimited free travel for their families across London (worth another £10-12k in salary) and enjoy one of the best pension schemes going.

They’ve been asked to work 7 x night shifts a year (note – same number of shifts in total) and for this have been offered a £2K bonus and a 2% pay rise.

Surely this money could be much better spent

I think your on to something there, we could raise tax levels to improve services, pay and conditions. Bravo sir you are a genius.

This tube strike is an example of why I’m not in a union. I agree with having unions but the unions in this country are crap and are destroying the British workforce. You may think a ‘successful’ strike is a good thing but it is just one step further in sealing their fate. As a result of the overpaid tube workers there is a much stronger business case to go for driverless trains and unmanned ticket sales machines. Striking doesdn’t hurt business it hurts the consumer/customers. It is totally counter productive. The company I work for will never build s new factory in this country because of the unions and that is a great shame. The last 4 factories out of 5 we’ve built in the last 6 or so years have been in other country’s mainly because of the unions and militant workforce. A great shame. In one generation we are transferring skills to other countries. British workers are just too difficult. Less work at a huge premium. I a lowly middle manager and have had dealings with unions and they really are not interested in working with the management for the long term benefit of the company. Their demands are unreasonable and, though we give in to them to avoid striking we just develop a long term plan to close down the factory and set a new one up overseas. A great shame.

Touché.
Have a 1% payrise!

For the next 4yrs

Sweeeeet!

Working in a tunnel all day and now nights too fk that, 50k would be a big pay rise for me but don’t think I’d take it plus do you have any idea how bad the air in the tube is,
http://www.airqualitynews.com/2014/08/18/dust-cleaning-london-tube-train-delayed-until-2017/

With them all the way. So many forget that the basic rights and conditions we all enjoy as workers were clawed from employer’s hands with only one basic thing- the right to withdraw your labour.

Let that be eroded and what do any of us have?

Clawing back the very basic rights is one thing and topping up an already over inflated salary and benefits whilst grinding one of the worlds major cities to a halt is something completely different. The tube workers enjoy salary and benefits way way above the going rate for a similar, or indeed many bigger and more demanding (physically and mentally) jobs and they really should recognise that and quit pushing for even more. They’re onto a good thing but clearly don’t know when to stop. I have no sympathy for them, they are not badly treated, badly paid (just the opposite) or have any reason to complain or demand more. Bring on driverless trains and ticket machines. It is simply not right, ethical or fair that London is ground to a halt because of these greedy, arrogant and ungrateful people. the world doesn’t owe you a living and if you have a very good living you should recognise that. At the end of the day, the workers don’t work for their managers, or even the company – they work for their customers – it is they who ultimately pay their wages and benefits. And it never ends well when you piss your customers off. That is just a simple fact of life.

In other countries unions work with companies to achieve the best result for both the workers and the companies long term prospects. It works well, results in very good industrial relations and usually does not result in strikes. The sort of people that are Union leaders, in my experience at least, I wouldn’t trust to wash my car. They are only in it for their own ego’s and they all have a huge chip on their shoulders. This is bad for the unions, the workers they are supposedly representing and the company.

How else would you expect companies to react if they can’t work with unions? They naturally do what they do best – sort out problems and blockers one way or another, and, like with the company I work for, usually results in taking the unions, and unfortunately the workers, out of the equation.

I have no real problem at all with unions striking for pay and conditions.

There are clear rules that they have to obey in calling a strike, in return they get well defined protection from sacking etc. for taking such action.

The risk they run is that they price themselves out the market and get replaced with something cheaper (hello driverless trains!)

There’s a huge difference between perfectly valid strikes over pay and conditions, and industrial action used as a method to try and circumvent democracy and overthrow the elected government of the day.

I’m the first to say **** **** strikers

However if it wasn’t for (historic) worker revolt, worker reaction or Unions we’d all be treated much much worse today.

So far from being a necessary evil I say chapeau to those who fight for fair better conditions.