Too much travel?? « Singletrack Forum

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Too much travel??

40 posts & 26 voices | Started 7 months ago by DWT | Latest reply from grantway

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DWT - Member

Ok, I have recently finished building an on-one456 summer season with £150mm revs on.(After a year off riding)

I was out on it yesterday and had two crashes on rocky sections both over the bars.
It feels like the forks dipped so much as to throw me over the front. I used to ride a normal 456 with 120mm rebas and that never happened.

My question is that is 150mm of travel too much causing the bike to buck me off or is it the fact that I've been out for a year and probably am a bit rusty on technique?

Posted 7 months ago #
ooOOoo - Member

more air pressure?

Posted 7 months ago #
dan1980 - Member

Rotate your brakes so they're more parallel to the ground (when on the flat), it causes you to drop your wrists and you'll shift your weight back a bit further as a result. This means you're less likely to go over the bars.

It is probably to little air in the forks too

Posted 7 months ago #
D0NK - Member

Yeah doubt it's "too much" travel just "not setup properly" travel

<edit>

Rotate your brakes so they're more parallel to the ground
Personally I reckon this is over rated, my brakes are pointing at the ground and I don't have trouble keeping weight back going down steep hills, possibly the opposite actually. Not saying it's a bad idea just not a sure fire fix.

Posted 7 months ago #
dan1980 - Member

It's something to try at least

I've not been over my bars since making the change about a year ago, now I either make a tactical dismount to the side, or drop off the back!

Posted 7 months ago #
deviant - Member

Somebody else brought this subject up recently on here too, they said that if they want their 150mm forks to work properly and use all of the travel then they end up being very soft/bouncy and the bike pitches fore and aft in a worrying manner, they said that when the fork is set up so it feels 'right' they only end up using about 100mm of travel anyway...it rang true when i read it and the OP's post is along the same lines, compressing a long travel fork is going to pitch the rider forward...this can probably be sorted out with technique, particularly as you've been off the bike for a year but if i wanted more travel then say 120mm then i'd go for full suspension.

Posted 7 months ago #
FunkyDunc - Member

This is where I dont get long travel forks.

You get a plusher ride and in general they make the bike slacker and more 'comfortable' however if you set the fork up properly to use the full travel, at some point you are going to be pitched forward as the fork gets to full travel. IMO that makes the bike harder to ride as you are going from mega slack to steep angled quickly, which takes alot of compensation from the rider.

Whats the point in pumping more air in, this will only stop you getting full travel?

Posted 7 months ago #
Herman Shake - Member

If it's dual air, check the balance between your - and + chambers. You can adjust it to avoid this. And yes you need more air in there. There should be a sticker on the fork with guideline pressures, these tend to be high for the weight of the rider. You also don't want a gap larger than 15psi between the -/+.

I have my 140mm revs at 80- and 90+, I'm about 65kg and ride mincegnarr (a bit of both) on my Dialled PA. Feels better than 90/90 but I've not exhausted the other options yet.

Posted 7 months ago #
deanfbm - Member

^FunkyDunc, disagree on the big change of angle stuff, it's just simply too much travel for that rider.

For a trail bike, if you have to run more than 25-30% (which is a lot of sag for that application) to achieve full travel, then you have too much suspension.

Either up the pressure to the correct sag and ride harder or go for a shorter travel fork. Or you could just run the correct sag, accept that you're never going to reach full travel, but you've still got the slacker HA to help with stability. Also by running too much sag, you're steepening that slack HA you bought the bike for.

This brings me onto another point, with these long travel hardtails, is it the slackness or travel that makes them good on the downs? IMO it's the slack HA, which you're still going to have if you run the suspension harder than you like.

It's just like when your typical mincer buys a 160mm bike for plushness, runs a lot of sag, then wonders why it doesn't pedal well. They then go onto doing a 2ft drop, bottom out their suspension, then seem to think they need a DH bike.

Ranting.

Posted 7 months ago #
D0NK - Member

This is where I dont get long travel forks.
Can the same not be said for FS? in the right (wrong?) situations, steep stuff like big steps, you're going to get front compressing, rear extending and getting very nose heavy and HA steepening up by a lot. Just gotta set it up for what you ride most I guess. Got some 140mm floats on my mmmbop (most I've run on a HT so far), still not got it 100% dialled in but not had any bad behaviour from it.

Posted 7 months ago #
ahwiles - Member

Too much travel??

yes.

you've got a summer-season, it's silly slack anyway.

Posted 7 months ago #
nickc - Member

I've got a cham with 140 magura Thors on it. It's my one bike, did used to have a shed full of singlespeeds, a 100mm hardtail and 150mm Nicolai Helius. The 140 cham lets me ride pretty much everything without all the cost and hassle of running 3 or more bikes or bothering with all the hassles of rear suss and effing about with another shock and pivots and bushings . That's the only reason I have a LT hardtail.

I ride pretty fast, I have the Thor set up pretty hard TBH, I'm not bothered about whether I get full travel or not feeling every lump and bump in the trail, I'm more interested in that fact that I can keep on the trail at full tilt, and 140 allows me a pretty large leeway when (invariably) I get in over my depth.

Posted 7 months ago #
FunkyDunc - Member

"^FunkyDunc, disagree on the big change of angle stuff, it's just simply too much travel for that rider."

I agree with what your saying, but surely no one these days buys bikes with more travel than they need. I was going off the assumption that people buy bikes because they NEED the miles of travel

(well certainly people always slate me when I suggest they will get more out of a bike with less travel)

Posted 7 months ago #
DWT - Member

Yes think ill have to try putting more air in the fork and have a play with the dual air bits. They do feel a little 'spongy'. So will see if that helps. The other option is to put the spacers in and reduce it to 130mm. Has anyone had any experience with doing this?

Posted 7 months ago #
thisisnotaspoon - Member

For a trail bike, if you have to run more than 25-30% (which is a lot of sag for that application)

Really?

I run 30-33% both ends on my Pitch, anything else feels very wrong. Took a few weeks of relying on the crutch that is Pro-Pedal to get used to it, but once you learn that big travel needs riding completely differently to short travel it all clicks into place.

And I wouldn't describe anything I ride as anything more than 'trail'.

And my 456 was absolutely awesome with 150mm Z1's on it, you just have to set tyhem up with enough comrpession that the front end is suppourted (as theres no rear supension to ballance out I found more compression helped). Still bottomed them out on drops etc, but never felt overwhelmed (despite a few rider supidity induced OTB incidents).

Getting the sag right is easy, 30-33% when in the attack/foreward position on the bike, or for easy repeatability I set it to 50% when sha*ing the stem with my weight as far foreward as possible, coensides with arround full travel if I bounce as hard as possible on them int he car park with the compression wound off. Then set the compression to hold up the frotn end, I found that the best/most controlled settings usualy involve more compression than is comfortable.

Posted 7 months ago #
deanfbm - Member

^thisisnotaspoon, I have a pitch too. I have to run about 22% sag in order not to bottom out.

I guess this "trail" riding term needs to be better defined.

What would your version of trail riding entail?

My version of "trail" (a bike that does everything) riding constitutes what I would call xc (going on a bike ride in the peaks), and what others may call freeride too, mixed in with a little DH. So 15+foot doubles, steep national DH tracks, 6+ft drops etc.

I went with the squidgey route at first, i must admit it felt good. Then i read a comment from a pinkbike editorial of how many international DHers bikes they tested, was seriously hard and uncomfortable, then as soon as they were going fast, the harshness went away and made sense. the faster you go, the harder the suspension has to work, the impacts are bigger. i gave it a go, the result was my bike felt amazingly better at speed.

Moral of the story, what felt good in the car park and smoother trails, isn't what feels good at speed on rougher stuff. harder in fact worked better for me in faster and rougher situations.

Posted 7 months ago #
mildred - Member

I think that proper setup is key with long travel bikes, whether full sus' or hardtail.

Mojo do quite a good guide that recommends you adopt an 'attack' position when setting the front sag; this means that when you then sit down and take the weight off the front, you have virtually no sag at all at the front. This means small bump sensitivity suffers, but you could argue that this isn't really a concern for those riding long travel hardtails. Set the sag 25-30% in this attack position and 'ride the fork', which should now prop you up a little better.

In my experience, this is even more important with slack head angles.

Also, if I rememeber correctly (perhaps Brant could comment here?), the summer season was born out of someone lijking the concept behind the Evil DOC - that is, slack front end designed around 100mm forks; I think the rational for On One was that this configuration was a great woodsy technical type bike. Good tight handling but also slack enough that you're not going over the bars. That said, you may well be 'over-forked' for this particular frame.

Posted 7 months ago #
fenred - Member

Good shout on setting sag in attack position, thats where you're going to be when you need aaaaallll that travel.

I'm still running 100mm on my HT and very rarely bottom out or feel the need for more travel.

Perhaps I need to work on my 'radness'

Posted 7 months ago #
b r - Member

And my 456 was absolutely awesome with 150mm Z1's on it,

Yes, but the poster has a 456 Summer Season which was designed to run with 100mm forks... My buddy has one and currently its set up with carbon forks (and a big fat tyre).

As for sag, I run +25% on my HT too - 456Ti and 140mm Thors

Posted 7 months ago #
PeterPoddy - Member

Personally I reckon this is over rated, my brakes are pointing at the ground and I don't have trouble keeping weight back going down steep hills,

It's nothing to do with getting your weight back. Jedi explains and demonstrates it best, and I'm not even going to try the explanation, but dropping your wrists makes it less likely that you'll go over the bars

Posted 7 months ago #
Euro - Member

Interested in this as my Summer season is due any day now (been saying that for 3 weeks now). It comes with 150 revs, though I'll be swapping them for some 36 talas as soon as it arrives. Same travel but chunkier and adjustable as I doubt i'd want all 150mm all of the time.

What stem length are you running? Mine ships (or will ship any day now - if I keep saying it, it may come true ) with a 90mm stem which will be changed to 50mm as i'd imagine a slack, 150mm forked, long stemmed monster to be a little odd to ride. Could potentially exaggerate any forward pitching to cause OTB moments like what you had.

edito:

PeterPoddy - Member
It's nothing to do with getting your weight back. Jedi explains and demonstrates it best, and I'm not even going to try the explanation, but dropping your wrists makes it less likely that you'll go over the bars

Yup, and you'll reduce the chance of arm pump on long decents

Posted 7 months ago #
nickc - Member

i read a comment from a pinkbike editorial of how many international DHers bikes they tested, was seriously hard and uncomfortable, then as soon as they were going fast, the harshness went away and made sense. the faster you go, the harder the suspension has to work, the impacts are bigger. i gave it a go, the result was my bike felt amazingly better at speed

this.

I want my forks to work best (for me anyway) when I'm going balls out downhill, I'm not bothered how they feel over a tree root

Posted 7 months ago #
legspin - Member

Was your saddle down?

Posted 7 months ago #
fenred - Member

And my 456 was absolutely awesome with 150mm Z1's on it,

Yes, but the poster has a 456 Summer Season which was designed to run with 100mm forks... My buddy has one and currently its set up with carbon forks (and a big fat tyre).

As for sag, I run +25% on my HT too - 456Ti and 140mm Thors

Whhhoaa there...Is that correct, ss designed to run with 100mm forks?

I was considering one a couple of years ago and the guys at on one told me it would ride dreadfully and advised an inbred, which I love but would prefer a size up and slacker angles??

Posted 7 months ago #
ahwiles - Member

Whhhoaa there...Is that correct, ss designed to run with 100mm forks?

~~yes.~~

edit: in light of brant's response below, it's increasingly clear that i'm an idiot.

Posted 7 months ago #
mildred - Member

dropping your wrists makes it less likely that you'll go over the bars

As does dropping the elbows, and dropping your heels (especially if on flats).

Think of the technique of 'bunny-hopping', with spd's and then with flats. Anyone who has learnt to lift the bike on spd's is often said to have 'bad technique'. I'd argue it isn't bad, just different.

What I mean is that if you use the same technique using flats, you're basically jumping off the bike, because most people who learn to bunny hop on spd's lift with the their legs and feet. that's fine - on spd's but again on flats it doesn't work.

Now, i think its a similar technique issue with long forks; your stance on the bike is key. To the OP, I would suggest as your next upgrade as a visit to Jedi. I'm not saying you're a crap rider, but as time goes by, I'm more convinced that skills classes are a fantastic way of revitalising your riding.

Posted 7 months ago #
_tom_ - Member

It's nothing to do with getting your weight back. Jedi explains and demonstrates it best, and I'm not even going to try the explanation, but dropping your wrists makes it less likely that you'll go over the bars

+1 If I try to ride with my wrists how I did before (not dropped) I always end up feeling like I'm gonna go over the bars, feels so wrong.

Posted 7 months ago #
brant - Member

Whhhoaa there...Is that correct, ss designed to run with 100mm forks?

It's not correct.

A 456 SS with the same length forks is actually lower (though longer) than a 456 with the same length forks.

I think 130/140 is about bang on with a SS, though 150mm isn't terrible, but it will feel choppered out and quite odd to most people.

Posted 7 months ago #
fenred - Member

Ta Brant.

Nice edit ahwiles

Posted 7 months ago #
trickydisco - Member

It's nothing to do with getting your weight back. Jedi explains and demonstrates it best, and I'm not even going to try the explanation, but dropping your wrists makes it less likely that you'll go over the bars

www.vimeo.com/18481682

forward to 50secs in

Posted 7 months ago #
DWT - Member

Think I may reduce the travel on the forks to 140 or 130mm then see if that helps. Is this difficult to do? Anyone had any experience in doing this? or is it a case for taking it to the LBS?

Posted 7 months ago #
cheez0 - Member

Out for a year?

Probably a bit twitchy on the front brake then?

That's what's sending you over the bars.

Posted 7 months ago #
walleater - Member

Moar compression damping.

Posted 7 months ago #
Sancho - Member

wtf is this thread about?

the OP is going over the bars through poor technique.
it has **** all to do with his "fork dive"

learn to ride the bike with more weight through your feet.
keep your body low, bend your arms more, flat back, etc etc.

give your bike to someone who is better than you - watch them ride the section and you'll realise its your technique.

Posted 7 months ago #
Steve77 - Member

Moar compression damping

Exactly, if you went OTB on a slow rocky section you need to up the low-speed compression damping

Posted 7 months ago #