Too many permits + too many trying to summit too late + resulting queue to get back down =

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-18142900

I’m surprised this is news though.

The article says 1 in 10 die while climbing Everest. 300 permits have been issued. We should expect 30 of them to come back dead. Unfortunately (but not unexpectedly) this has happened to 3 of them but its not really news.

I’m surprised this is news though.

The article says 1 in 10 die while climbing Everest. 300 permits have been issued. We should expect 30 of them to come back dead. Unfortunately (but not unexpectedly) this has happened to 3 of them but its not really news.

This.

1 in 10 is bs, even historically. About 4000 ascents since 2000, 54 fatalities

By the end of the 2010 climbing season, there had been 5,104 ascents to the summit by about 3,142 individuals. 80% of these ascents took place since 2000. In 2007, the record number of 633 ascents has been recorded, by 350 climbers and 253 sherpas.[58]
A remarkable illustration of the explosion of popularity of Everest is provided by the numbers of daily ascents. As mentioned below, the 1996 disaster was partly blamed on the number of climbers (33 to 36) attempting to summit on the same day; this was considered unusually high at the time. By comparison, on 23 May 2010, the summit of Mount Everest was reached by 169 climbers.[58]
Nearly all attempts at the summit are done using one of the two main routes. The traffic seen by each route varies from year to year. In 2005–07, more than half of all climbers elected to use the more challenging, but cheaper northeast route. In 2008, the northeast route was closed by the Chinese government for entire climbing season, and the only people able to reach the summit from the north that year were athletes responsible for carrying the Olympic torch for the 2008 Summer Olympics.[71] The route was closed to foreigners once again in 2009 in the run-up to the 50th anniversary of the Dalai Lama’s exile.[72] These closures led to declining interest in the north route, and, in 2010, two thirds of the climbers reached the summit from the south.[58]
There were 219 fatalities recorded on Mount Everest since the 1922 British Mount Everest Expedition through the end of 2010. 54 of these occurred after 2000: 33 on the northeast ridge, 17 on the southeast ridge, 2 on southwest face, and 2 on north face.[58]

Those mountains of the mind are not so easily attained.

A study published in the British Medical Journal in 2006 stated that, on average, there had been one death for every 10 successful attempts to scale Mt Everest.

The mountain’s worst-ever climbing season was in 1996, when 15 climbers died, eight of them in one day.

The article says 1 in 10 die while climbing Everest. 300 permits have been issued. We should expect 30 of them to come back dead. Unfortunately (but not unexpectedly) this has happened to 3 of them but its not really news.

Does not comupte? 300 * 0.1 > 15 ?

I notice 2 Nepalis died last week, but they don’t seem as newsworthy as paying customers, bit like the Alan Davies joke about the bees.

read this
No Way Down

great read and very sobering, kinda made me want to give it a go though for some reason?

it says 1 death for every 10 SUCCESSFUL attempts.

i.e. if they issue 300 permits, but only 10 of them succeed, you’d expect 1 death.

Misleading statistic.

There is no gain to these people ascending the mountain, same as surfers getting attacked by sharks in “shark infested waters” if you put yourself in harms way…

scary, just down right scary…

There is no gain to these people ascending the mountain

Really? Who are you to say that?

The guy who put me through my ML has summited. He said that there are lots of companies in Eastern Europe who will take you up for a large fee.They also have a bonus for getting you there…All without asking any questions about ability,experience etc. I trekked to base camp in 2004, the size of the graveyard there is rather sobering.As are the headaches…

duckman – Member
The guy who put me through my ML has summited. He said that there are lots of companies in Eastern Europe who will take you up for a large fee.They also have a bonus for getting you there…All without asking any questions about ability,experience etc.

FTFY

I’m surprised this is news though.

I’d guess its news because 3 (probably 5 actually) people dying on one day in relatively good weather is unusual, even for Everest.

The article says 1 in 10 die while climbing Everest. 300 permits have been issued. We should expect 30 of them to come back dead. Unfortunately (but not unexpectedly) this has happened to 3 of them but its not really news.

Actually thats not what it says, it says 1 person dies for every 10 successful attempts on the summit. it doesn’t say how many people are in each group attempting the summit. The report it refers to actually puts the mortality rate at 1.3% for all climbers since the 1920s.

As on old-fuddy duddy and ex-climber, the whole Everest things makes me sad. In Nepalese culture, Everest is a sacred place. And what has it become now – a rubbish tip, a way to make money, a trail of fixed ropes and dead bodies? Is this what mountainering is about? Leaving people to die on the mountain sums up the whole sad, recent history.

My youth was dominated by the arrival of Bonington’s seige tactics on S Face of Annapurna and SW Face of Everest. Amazing examples of logisitical planning and technical climbing. But I was relieved when the philosophy changed to more self sufficient attempts eg Ogre epic etc. But now it seems wrong somehow.

Since people have been carried down recently any party who leaves an individual to die needs to take a long hard look at themselves. It is now inexcusable to leave someone to die if you are in a group. IMHO

Sandwich – Member
Since people have been carried down recently any party who leaves an individual to die needs to take a long hard look at themselves. It is now inexcusable to leave someone to die if you are in a group. IMHO

Next time you are on Everest in those circumstances i will email you this thread, you have no idea, you really dont.

Steve, genuinely interested in the development of your argument. Are you saying that the circumstances on Everest mean that compassion for other mountaineers should/can be suspended?

Since people have been carried down recently any party who leaves an individual to die needs to take a long hard look at themselves. It is now inexcusable to leave someone to die if you are in a group. IMHO

Not even if it’s TJ suffering from a head injury?

Steve, genuinely interested in the development of your argument. Are you saying that the circumstances on Everest mean that compassion for other mountaineers should/can be suspended?

I think the general principal (and it’s been done to death on here every time someone dies on Evrest) is that if conditions are bad enough for one person to die, then staying with them just results in even more bodies on the mountain.

Yes, there is always a judgement call to make re helping someone and endangering others. But I get the ‘feeling’ that there is a summit-at-all-costs mentality that is different to mountaineering in the 1970-2000s (perhaps?).

I think what Steve means is that for most humans, just climbing and getting back off Everest is at the very limit of human performance. To try and drag someone who is in deep trouble of the mountain could very likely result in your own death too. Harsh but true.

It’s not purely a question of self-preservation though is it. If you are ill-equipped/skilled to carry out a rescue then by trying to help you are potentially endangering not only yourself but others who might feel compelled to try and rescue you in turn.

I do agree about Everest generally though – seems a very sad state of affairs and not at all what appeals to me about mountaineering.

Next time you are on Everest in those circumstances i will email you this thread, you have no idea, you really dont.

Steve, genuinely interested in the development of your argument. Are you saying that the circumstances on Everest mean that compassion for other mountaineers should/can be suspended?

Anyone who ascends everest knows the risk that they or someone else may get left behind to die. It’s for this reason alone that I hold those climbing Everest in utter contempt.

Yet these people seem to be able to live with themselves in the knowledge that through achieving their own personal goal, they had to walk by the bodies of those dead and dying.

The best Everest book, no question.

Mental how they got up there with the equipment they had back in the 1920s.

Leaving people to die on the mountain sums up the whole sad, recent history.

It is sad but the reality is that most people can only just get themselves down, let alone carry some one else. In 1996 Rob Hall stayed to help (client) Doug Hansen and died up there with him. Andy Harris who went up to assist them also died, probably falling off the Lhotse face. Everyone who goes up there knows if they cant get down on their own they are likely to be left for dead.

Yet these people seem to be able to live with themselves in the knowledge that through achieving their own personal goal, they had to walk by the bodies of those dead and dying.

Despite it being a childhood dream, that’s exactly why I now have no desire to now climb Everest.

When I was learning to climb and then teaching climbing to cadets, the most important lesson that I learned and taught was that the best mountaineer (as opposed to technical climber) was the person who knew when to turn back. I “feel’ that this concept has long gone. Time to put my hemp, clinkers, tweed and kendal mint cake back in the loft – oh and the 70s balaclava, joe brown rucksac and belstaff smock (if only those still existed!!)

Yet these people seem to be able to live with themselves in the knowledge that through achieving their own personal goal, they had to walk by the bodies of those dead and dying.

You are Joe Simpson and I claim my £5!

Whatever their motives are its a cold and lonely place to die and far too easy to judge others whilst sat in front of a computer. The mountains are stangely addictive and despite meeting lots of knobbish trekking groups in Nepal it is awe inspiring and the Nepalese are amazing. If you were willing to pay for me to join an expedition I’d go back quite happily. I’d say knowing when to turn back is the ultimate skill which can be very hard if you have put everything on the line for your one attempt. May they RIP.

Steve, genuinely interested in the development of your argument. Are you saying that the circumstances on Everest mean that compassion for other mountaineers should/can be suspended?

The reality in certain circumstances on Everest is that an attempt to bring down a severely debilitated climber who is unable to help him/herself could mean death for the other climbers involved.

Certainly the practice of climbing past an individual in trouble to continue your summit day would be reprehensible, but in extreme conditions, descending from a summit day, even a strong mountaineer might be flirting with the fine line between life and death themselves, and the decision to stay with an immobile and helpless colleague and inch them towards safety would mean two deaths rather than one.

There have been some incredible stories of rescues or attempted rescues over the years though. The book ‘Into Thin Air’ by Jon Krakauer describes one horrific situation quite well.

Anyone heading beyond 8000m, even with a guide attached, needs to understand that it doesn’t take much more than a couple of bad rolls of the dice – bad weather, injury, illness – to put them in a place where their expensive guide cannot save them.

A mountaineering death thread is just not the same without that city dwelling know all telling us all about it (through his arse).

But I get the ‘feeling’ that there is a summit-at-all-costs mentality that is different to mountaineering in the 1970-2000s (perhaps?).

Ronald Naar? That was 20 years ago.

(Just a thought – not saying your wrong).

A mountaineering death thread is just not the same without that city dwelling know all telling us all about it (through his arse).

Slightly better than reading Joe Simpson’s back catalogue – one interesting book about his accident and then 10 winging on about lack of ethics in high altitude climbing…..

I read this one on my trek to EBC and it was a bit of an eye opener.

“Where once climbers like Sir Edmund Hilary enjoyed noble and brave reputations, in the 21st century the criminal element has turned Everest into a place where beatings, thefts, drugs, prostitution, threats and abandonment reign”

I think the stories of guided commercial ‘climbers’ obsessed with the summit (or perhaps more specifically the bragging rights) stepping over the dying during an ascent should be distinguished from a group of pro climbers in a life or death decision on the way down.

RIP and you can not hold it against those who are drawn/the lure to the challenge. Its most definitely not a motorway or handheld experience either.

I think like mountain biking there are too many high horses/snobbish/arrogance in every challenge/scene. Sad really.

RIP. You died attempting your biggest challenge.

Next time you are on Everest in those circumstances i will email you this thread, you have no idea, you really dont

except people like anatoli boukreev will go back multiple times and rescue injured climbers in a horrific storms (after summiting without the use of oxygen themselves) and still come under attack by clowns like john krakauer.

after summiting without the use of oxygen themselves

I think that was one of the main criticisms leveled at him by Krakauer i.e. why take additional unnecessary risk when you are responsible for the wellbeing of others.

clowns like john krakauer.

have you read the book?

yeh he’s an idiot that did himself no favours what so ever with the personal attack on anatoli given that by his own admission he was in and out of an exhausted slumber unable to assist at all and yet with eagle eyed hindsight after the event saw fit to criticise a brilliant and brave mountaineer.

I think joe simpsons take on it was a far more balanced and reasoned.

More disturbing is the piss poor treatment of porters and staff by western tourists on guided climbs where there have been (thankfully rare) instances of “sherpas” being left to die because westerners would be late for their flights home if stopped to help.

Haven’t read Simpson’s. Will dig it out.

The main thing I got from the book was that the lack of empathy to fellow climbers has as much to do with basic human psychology than anything particular to mountaineering. Time and again, human history and psychological studies and have shown that if you put people in an environment where they have an authority figure and instructions to obey, they will do things that ordinarily their morals wouldn’t allow. e.g. holocaust, scientist/volunteer/electric shock/actor in the next room screaming

Anyone who’s been guided doing anything remotely risky (off-piste skiing, canyoning, climbing) will probably have experienced to some extent, the ever-present, all-overriding instruction to always do what your guide tells you to do. The riskier the situation, the greater the reliance on the guide, the more important that instruction becomes

On Rob Hall’s trips, anyone not following orders would be grounded at Base camp for the remainder of the trip (or sent back down the valley- can’t remember). You can see from the leader’s point of view, safety is paramount, for his clients, and his employees, he needs to control the environment as much as possible. He needs to know where people are based on what they’ve been told and can’t afford the uncertainty of someone thinking for themselves.

Trouble is, as Krakauer points out, if you’re drilled to value instructions over instincts, dis-empowered to act on your instincts, you stop listening to them. He reckons that if he had been on this expedition as part of a team of peers, it’s likely he’d have acted on several signs he ignored on Everest. I’m inclined to believe him, whether he’s trying to use it as an excuse or an explanation for his part, and no matter how much difference it might have made.