What, so they slept with somebody who ended up not being quite who they thought they were ?? First time that has happened ever in the entire history of humanity, somebody round up 3 wise men and some camels.

Funny how the gloves on the other hand for the “human empathy” brigade isn’t it? Some of who don’t agree with the punishment of criminals (only the rehabilitation) and the rights of someone to sponge off the state but if it’s a policeman then all bets are off and its “karma” and “boohoo”. Selective empathy.

Hels. Are you insinuating what I think you are?

That the Angel Gabriel was in fact an undercover police officer, sent to investigate the emerging group of troublemakers, the Christians. And the Inn, stable, manger, etc were props in an elaborate ‘sting’?

I once had my wicked way with a female GI in Greenland, she thought I was Her Majesty’s representative in Greenland.

Not 100% sure if any soap dodgers were produced as a result mind

I’m a Kiwi Binners, we don’t do insinnuition.

If I was saying that, I would just say it, or perhaps send one of our All Black Orcs to sort it out.

Wrecker that’s bolloks and all, it’s not about Selective empathy but about inappropriate policing
Do you feel he’s done no wrong? Do you feel empathy toward someone prepared to act in this manner because it backfired and he fell by the sword he was so eager to wield?
As I said…boohoo.. 🙄

but if it’s a policeman then all bets are off and its “karma” and “boohoo”.

I don’t know if you’ve read the story or not, but he lied to a group of people who trusted him and called him their friend. From the outset, he totally and utterly betrayed them, and did so with no other aim than to betray them. He developed a relationship with one of them based on nothing more than this betrayal. Frankly, this is the kind loathsome behaviour I expect from junkie scum. And guess what – now they don’t want to be his pals anymore and he doesn’t understand why.
And you can accuse other people of lacking in emapthy??

What, so they slept with somebody who ended up not being quite who they thought they were ?? First time that has happened ever in the entire history of humanity, somebody round up 3 wise men and some camels.

They got paid to do it out of our taxes. I’m amazed that anyone is defending this or claiming its not an issue. You must be a real charmer if you consider this acceptable behaviour.

Not 100% sure if any soap dodgers were produced as a result mind

Again, you sound like a real charmer, maybe see if there are any jobs going in the police undercover squads?

Funny how the gloves on the other hand for the “human empathy” brigade isn’t it? Some of who don’t agree with the punishment of criminals (only the rehabilitation) and the rights of someone to sponge off the state but if it’s a policeman then all bets are off and its “karma” and “boohoo”. Selective empathy.

Selective empathy based on completely different unrelated scenarios, er…… yes.

hels – Member
That worries me, you mean I could secretly have mothered a child sometime when I wasn’t paying enough attention ?? Will it come after me if it ever needs a new kidney or driving lessons or something ??

Just biding my time…

hels – Member

That worries me, you mean I could secretly have mothered a child sometime when I wasn’t paying enough attention ?? Will it come after me if it ever needs a new kidney or driving lessons or something ??

Hi Mum 🙂

Teh point to me is almost anything goes if he was infiltrating terrorist organisations tht are a real threat to society but with a bunch of dippy hipppies? Did they really pose enough of a threat that undercover cops were merited? Its more like Stasi FFS

Wrecker that’s bolloks and all, it’s not about Selective empathy but about inappropriate policing
Do you feel he’s done no wrong? Do you feel empathy toward someone prepared to act in this manner because it backfired and he fell by the sword he was so eager to wield?

He was doing his job. He’s not behaved perfectly (I’m only talking about Kennedy) but he is only human. He was put in a position and left there for years and whilst at it fell in love.

e lied to a group of people who trusted him and called him their friend. From the outset, he totally and utterly betrayed them, and did so with no other aim than to betray them.

???? He wasn’t sent to make friends. He was sent with the purpose of finding out what people were up to.

So some activists had their feelings hurt

boohoo..

A bloke has had his entire life ruined just by doing his job.

“A bloke has had his entire life ruined just by doing his job.”

I thought he was a policeman sworn to up hold the law . He planned and took part in criminal acts. He appeared in court as a defendant under a false name thereby perverting the course of justice . He was party to a massive failure to disclose important evidence that led to the wrongful conviction of a number of innocent protesters. All of which was paid for and sanctioned by senior officers none was exactly the job the public thought they were funding.

Who are you talking about crankboy?

wrecker – Mark Kennedy

He planned and took part in criminal acts.

As part of his job.

He appeared in court as a defendant under a false name thereby perverting the course of justice .

As a part of his job (which he was not responsible for according to the enquiry)
Like I said. He was doing what he was told.

Kennedy acted like a s..t, now he’s being treated like a s..t. Seems fair.

He was doing what he was told.

That’s ok then,..so anyone working outside of, and directly breaking the law, isn’t responsible for their actions as long as someone senior told them to do it?
Concentration camp guards anyone,…?

What a ridiculous comparison.

A bit extreme maybe,.. but ‘i was only following orders’ has been said before, and is generally accepted to be bollocks..

Comparing gassing Jews with pretty much anything is wholly accepted to be bollocks.

By you maybe…
So as long as your not gassing Jews,.. anything goes….
Do you know him or something?

I just appreciate that some people have to do a difficult job. I don’t see spying on a few idiots as anything too severe in the scheme of things. Loosing your entire life in return is disproportionate. If you think comparing this to genocide is acceptable then you have severely twisted morals.

So as long as your not gassing Jews,.. anything go’s….

Nobody with half a brain is going to agree with that connection.

If we rephrase ‘spying on a few idiots’ to ‘upholders of the law, breaking the law, inciting violence and incriminating innocent people whilst hiding behind the excuse of Following orders ‘ I may have a point..
It’s easier to say ‘just spying on a few idiots’ though isn’t it..

Like I said. He was doing what he was told.

the Nuremberg defence and it does not hold up.

It’s not **** Nuremberg. FFS.
It’s a lazy, shit, irrelevant and insulting comparison.

It’s not a direct comparison or an attempt to make a moral equivalence, surely that’s obvious? It’s just a way of pointing out that “I was only following orders” doesn’t absolve anyone of blame.

wrecker – Member

“He planned and took part in criminal acts.”

As part of his job.

Heh. All professional criminals take part in criminal acts as part of their job 😉

Its exactly what it is – justifying the unjustifiable by saying “I was only following orders”

Nuremberg set the precedent that that is no defence.

Spying on a few idiots? thats a part of what makes in unjustifiable. I agree he is being scapegoated to some extent but he appears not to be getting prosecuted. however if he had been spying on someone actually dangerous then there might have been more justification.

Proportionate and commensurate? to spay on a non violent protest group using these tactics? far more suited to the IRA and al queda surely

Grum – next time I willhold up my sarcasm sign.

Northwind and TJ – probably only fair to reveal at this point that I am not a real ginger.

It’s not **** Nuremberg. FFS.

No it’s not,..it’s britain, and OUR police force are acting like some south American military junta! FFS!!!
(that’s my first FFS on stw 😀 )
Your defending the indefensible IMO so I’m going for my dinner.

Again it’s bloody irrelevant. We’re looking at a moral judgement of right and wrong. Citing a defence used by nazis to attempt to justify genocide is lazy.
Lying to idiots is obviously not so unquestionable. Everyone has a difference as to what is acceptable; speeding, tax evasion etc.
I don’t agree or disagree with his mission. As I said earlier I am not best placed to judge who merits spying on and would hazard a guess neither is anyone else on here. I bet the bloke never joined the police to be abused by his masters the way he has. He is certainly not the devil incarnate as some on here would have us think.

khani’s analogy to the extermination camps was crass and idiotic – and I think in retrospect he knows that – but his point is valid, in that ultimately, no matter what position we hold in society, we are all individually accountable for our actions. Perhaps Mr Kennedy lacked the moral fibre to extricate himself from a situation that he and others allowed to spiral out of control. I’ve not seen the documentary and don’t know much about the circumstances, but maybe he developed relationships that he didn’t want to end and therefore was inclined to allow the duplicity to carry on – not being able to turn his emotions off.

Undoubtedly he was let down by senior officers (his handlers) who failed to govern his actions and provide him with clear, proportionate legal aims & directives. Or if they did, failed to check he was following them at regular periods.

The whole sorry business was a big waste of time and energy and clearly shows the pitfalls of an officer doing SEVEN years of UC work. It’s hardly an unforeseeable shocker that allowing an officer to assume another identity for that long, living that double life, could change his psyche and mindset and things might go pear shaped.

I think it would make a good film or BBC drama … and personally I’d cast Daniel Mays as the officer!

Its not irrelevant Wrecker – you are trying to justify his conduct by saying “he was only following orders” that is no defence in law. Nuremberg made that defence no longer permissible in any situation including this one.

Its not about a moral judgement – that would be that his actions were justified – thats a different argument to “I was only following orders”

I CBA with your usual tricks TJ. Same as before, I know full well what you’re like and will not be drawn into a wall butting never ending concentrate on one thing bore fest with you and I never will. You’ve just killed the thread. Well done.
Take it as a victory if you like. I just don’t care.

khani’s analogy to the extermination camps was crass and idiotic – and I think in retrospect he knows that

Yes, apologies for that, 🙁 not the best analogy, just the first to spring to mind hearing the term ‘only following orders’ used..
Sorry peeps…

I am not the only one to make that point. several of us have. You called it irrelvant and crass – I merely pointed out where you were wrong IMO

deluded – Member
khani’s ……………….
but his point is valid, in that ultimately, no matter what position we hold in society, we are all individually accountable for our actions.

Northwind – Member

It’s not a direct comparison or an attempt to make a moral equivalence, surely that’s obvious? It’s just a way of pointing out that “I was only following orders” doesn’t absolve anyone of blame.

If my boss told me do something ilegal or imoral i’d tell them to get stuffed, as would most honest people.

TJ made a valid point, saying he killed the thread is a *cop out.
*see what I did there? 8)

TJ – actually wrecker just called it irrelevant (not crass). You’re conflating posts!

Oops