is it me or is anyone else starting to worry about the possibility of a tory goverment, I had just been thinking change of party, not much change in substance but they seem to be relishing using the word RADICAL again and sounding more and more thatcherite, they keep talking about change but to me it just sounds like a change back to the policys of the 80s. I remember the 80s well as one of 'thatchers children' and its starting to scare the s**t out of me!

yes.. there is this idea going around that they will streamline the public sector and save us £x from our tax bill and we will all suddenly prosper.

Biggest economic lie going, but the easiest to sell to the public.

Let's be truthful they govern for the minority of the country.

The choice of parties that they've aligned themselves in Europe doesn't seem to bode well either.

what are the (credible) alternatives ?

I think they're in other countries 🙂

They will get in and will make as crap a job of it as New Labour has done. Some people will get rich and another generation will be squandered.

I'm more afraid of new labour than tories. Both bad, but Brown is the worst leader I can remember including Thatcher. He really is that bad IMHO. Sad really.

Captain Flashheart to the forum please, Captain Flashheart!

[/page]

I'm more afraid of new labour than tories. Both bad,

My fear is that voters are paralysed by fear and keep voting for either.

"worried " about a slightly right of centre goverment rather than a slightly left of centre one !! Come on for the vast majority of people there wont be any difference. A couple of people will do better a couple worse, just how it always is.

anyone read their policy on education? any teacher who's pupils are failing gets sacked, replaced with younger, newly qualified students…..

Sacking a teacher because she has been given a lowest-set idiot class that doesn't want to work… replaced with a student. Brilliant david. really brilliant.

>anyone read their policy on education?

No, got a link ?

Populations get the politicians they deserve, and this population, unfortunately, seems to deserve the Tories. In ten years time, the people who voted Tory will be the people moaning about how bad things are.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

'We care so much about the poor, yah?'

Same shit, different bucket.
Vince Cable for President!! 😉

I'm concerned, yeah. There's a severe talent vacuum in Westminster and with the Tory party in particular. Not encouraging for the tough few years that lie ahead. A point I've seen made a few places concerns the parallels between Cameron and Blair – how they're both good communicators, media-friendly empty suits. The difference being that electing such a cypher in 1997 was not a problem given the thriving economic climate of the country – Blair was the perfect man for 97 in hindsight. Now though? No way – we need a leader of weight and substance, an anti-Cameron. Unfortunately there is no one around the UK political landscape who fits the bill.

Cameron bears the classic politicians curse, like McBroon, of being the least offensive option to all wings of the party.

Fortunately the people pulling his strings are somewhat more embedded in the principles of Libertarian Conservatism than he appears to be.

For all who worry about what damage the tories could do if they get in, I need only offer three horrifying words – Prime Minister Mandelson

For all who worry about what damage the tories could do if they get in, I need only offer three horrifying words – Prime Minister Mandelson

Surely, no one would be daft enough to ever let that happen……………………………………..would they?? 😯

I personally can't wait to see the back of Labour. They are notoriously bad with money, always have been and always will be. I feel much more confident in the ability of the Tories to steer us out of this recession. I would also like to have the chance to vote on future European legislation, something we can't do under Brown and Labour.

Anyone see David Cameron interview by Andrew Marr this morning? The guy never answered a single question. Not for want of trying by Marr, and there were a few golden but brief flashes of panic on DC's face.

I realise your thinking 'Politician avoids question shocker' but any other would have picked out at least a few for sensible debate or policy clarification.

The impression that comes across is a totally vacuous philosophy of get in to power, to feed the smug monster.

It would be funny to see Mandelson run in an election, if only to see the Tories struggling with their inner scumbag qualities. Puts me in mind of Norman Tebbit endorsing Iain Duncan Smith against Michael Portillo – 'He's a normal, everday, family man' 🙂

anyone read their policy on education? any teacher who's pupils are failing gets sacked, replaced with younger, newly qualified students…..

Sacking a teacher because she has been given a lowest-set idiot class that doesn't want to work… replaced with a student. Brilliant david. really brilliant.

Saw this on the news last night. Great, another reactionary tory govt looms, creating sh1t lives for everyone in order to corner the knee jerk votes market.

Will the last person out please turn off the lights etc etc

fastindian Don't worry it'll not touch you unless your on of those thats got rich of nu labour, but then you'll be clever enough to get rich out of the tories. Course you could have a vested interest in not having the tories because the labour goverment is paying your wages. Supose if thats the case then you should not be aloud to vote. I reckon all state employees should not be able to vote in any election.

When Marr asked him how much he was worth after a report in a paper estmated 30million his wriggle was classic. He scares the shit out of me. I also fail to see how labour have done that badly though, I mean most of the same major things would of been done by the Tories. His comment about cutting spending and closing quangoes (???spelling??) wouldnt cause job losses was great.

I need only offer three horrifying words – Prime Minister Mandelson

A nice bit of melodramatic bollox there ratty ….. the geezer isn't even standing for member of parliament in the general election. So there is no possibility at all of him becoming leader of the Labour Party and even less, of the Queen asking him to be PM.

However, what ratty says here is quite true :

Cameron bears the classic politicians curse, like McBroon, of being the least offensive option to all wings of the party.

Fortunately the people pulling his strings are somewhat more embedded in the principles of Libertarian Conservatism than he appears to be.

What ratty means is, that despite Cameron appearing to be quite a fair and reasonable sort of guy (a bit like Blair) he will once prime minister, become a prisoner to the extreme right-wing freaks which hold so much sway within the Tory Party.

People like Zulu-Eleven's favourite guru Dan Hannan. This is the guy who says that the NHS should be scrapped because according to him it makes people "iller", yes you heard right – "iller" ! And it has been a failure for the last 60 years. He would like it replaced by the American model …ie no health service. It's called "Libertarian Conservatism"

This new darling of the Tory Party and favourite right-wing pin-up boy Dan Hannan also said in Oct 2004, quote :

"In the ten years that I have been travelling to Iceland, I have watched an economic miracle unfold there.”
“Today, Icelanders are absolutely rolling in it. A people two generations away from subsistence farming have become international tycoons.”

Three years later Iceland was bankrupt. Broke. Penniless. And the collapsed Icelandic banks were left owing Billions of pounds to local authorities throughout Britain.

So much for the "business acumen" of this Tory right-wing hero then.

Now some might dismiss Dan Hannan as a maverick with no influence …. not true. He has a lot of influence within the Tory party and is one of their most important speech writers. He also has a close relationship with Cameron, which explains why he was never disciplined when he rubbished the British NHS on US television.

Course you could have a vested interest in not having the tories because the labour goverment is paying your wages

Nail on the head, Turkeys don't vote for Christmas! And wheres the main increase in government employees? yep, white collar bureaucrat civil servants, spot on the demographic for the vital influential swing voter…

Pisses me off the whole 'Tories would cut investment prolonging the recession' lie – Keynsian investment out of recession was about putting money into something that gave tangible results afterwards, about creating infrastructure, using money and creating jobs building houses, hospitals and factories, not about paying for pen pushers to process government paperwork from one department to another in an endless circle!

At the moment we're overspending our national income by Billions of pounds every week, Theres two choices to reduce this deficit – raise more tax, or spend less, I don't think that Labour are capable of either

but Brown is the worst leader I can remember including Thatcher.

And yet, many governments including the Conservative government in the US under G W Bush, took Gordon Brown's policies as an example of what action should be taken in face of the global recession.

There is no doubt that Gordon Brown could have been a much much better chancellor, if he had ditched the failed Thatcherite experiment of deregulation and "the market always knows best" which caused this crises in the first place.

But a Tory chancellor would have been much much worst……….. George Osborne ??? ….ffs

I think mt's English teacher should be sacked.

Ernie – the thing you choose to ignore regards Iceland, is that the free market was NOT allowed to rein, the UK government interfered, assets were frozen using anti terrorist legislation.

The whole point of a free market is that there must be freedom to fail, without that people invest in high risk investments because they feel immune to the threat of losing everything, the free market relies on personal responsibility, that its YOUR responsibility to choose where you put your money, and that if you choose greedily, then you risk losing the lot and being left with nothing – the people who invested in notoriously (small c) conservative Barclays did so on a lesser interest rate than those who chose offshore high interest investments – theres a reason why they paid higher returns, by interfering and thinking that there can be no losers, Gordon perpetuated the very boom and bust he claimed to have abolished

I worry for our future, not because of Dave though. I actually suspect he's really an alright chap. I'm sure any of us could sit and have a beer with him in the same way that we could, say, have a beer with Flash or Stoner. Dave has had an easy ride in life, up until his combination of genes with the missus didn't quite work out for his son, who died tragically young. But that wasn't his or her fault, how were they to know? I'm sure if I sat down for a brandy with him, he'd be more than able to hide the massive difference in the metallic nature of the spoons that were in our mouths when we exited our respective mothers' wombs. I think he believes in the NHS, in good state provided education and in fairness and justice for all.

My worry, is as ernie says, that I strongly suspect he's had to "sell his soul" (not literally of course, I don't believe he really has one) to the far right slashers and burners part of his party. Worryingly, he completely avoided making his position on Europe clear today. Even more worryingly (this concerned me big time a few months back), he never gave Hannan the disciplining he deserved after his debacle on American TV. Worryingly again, he's allowed the Euro-tories to align themselves with some truly nutcase parties in Brussels. And finally, worryingly (I'm really really worried now), he seems to be happy for the BBC to be taken apart bit by bit to be ravaged by Murdoch and Associates (Inc).

And here's the rub for me…I don't think Dave really wants all this bad stuff to happen, because, despite his background, I think he might just give a shit about the rest of us busily walking the breadline, having to use the NHS and send our kids to state schools…I always thought Major was a decent bloke surrounded by horrible individuals – the only difference being that (most of) Major's crowd had been exposed for the useless bunch of incompetents they were. However, there is a rising element of pretty horrible (and young) individuals in the party who have some kind of sway over him – and when Dave gets in, I think there's going to be a line of these guys at his door waiting for their pounds of flesh..and we have no idea how painful it's going to be when we're giving it, and how long it'll take for the wounds to heal.

tinribz – Member
Anyone see Gordon Brown interview by Andrew Marr last week? The guy never answered a single question. Not for want of trying by Marr, and there were a few golden but brief flashes of panic on GB's face.

See what I did there?

To be honest, this thread will simply descend as usual. Lots of people will blame Facha for everkink, innit (regardless of the fact that someone else has had the reins for quite some little while). Other folks will take the opposite point of view.

Me? Well, I have some doubts over Osbourne, mainly because of his connections with Mandelson and chums, but I would far rather see my country represented by Cameron and Hague than by anyone from the Labour party. As to "Saint" Vince? Give it a rest. The man's happily feathering his nest with sucking up to the media and saying what they want hear. Economic genius he is not.

I would far rather see my country represented by Cameron and Hague

Wouldn't you rather we knew who was pulling their strings though Flash? Surely you would wouldn't you?

Zulu-Eleven – Member

Ernie – the thing you choose to ignore regards Iceland, is that the free market was NOT allowed to rein……….The whole point of a free market is that there must be freedom to fail…..

Ratty ….. I am honestly gobsmacked !

Now, I can understand that you might want to put a 'spin' on things, But this is frankly ridiculous !

Let me remind you again what the guy whom you consider to be your guru, Dan Hannan said. Remember, this is the guy who you reckon has all the answers, the guy who really understands economics.

Dan Hannan Oct 2004, quote :

"“Icelanders are rolling in it. Why? Because they understand that small is beautiful and have stayed out of the EU”

“In the ten years that I have been travelling to Iceland, I have watched an economic miracle unfold there.”

“Today, Icelanders are absolutely rolling in it. A people two generations away from subsistence farming have become international tycoons.”

“This sparse, chilly speck of tundra has just overtaken Norway to become the wealthiest place in Europe."[/b]

HE WAS WRONG !

And he wasn't wrong about any old thing. He was wrong in his whole economic analyses. He wrong about the things which he most fundamentally believes in.

Do you understand what I am saying ?

Bring back maggie!

Here's the article which he wrote Ratty, in case you want to argue that he didn't say those things.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/spectator/spec402.html

BTW, Boris Johnson was editor of the Spectator when that complete load of nonsense was published.

Daniel Hannan is an extremist imbecile ernie. Not sure how relevant it is bringing him up in a conversation about the Tory party. It would be like dismissing today's labour party because Arthur Scargill is putting the odd candidate up for the Socialist Labour Party.

I am by nature and nurture a Tory supporter – my one blip was voting out the corrupted and lost shower in 1997 believing that any change had to be better. Still, older and wiser…

But Dave and chums worry me – I'm now in the public sector and I am horrified at the waste and cost incurred by ill thought out legislation knee jerked into creation and rushed through a useless rubber stamping Parliament by the current lot, largely, I believe, because the vast majority of Labour MPs are too young, too sheep like and lacking in any "real world" experience that could generate an iota of common sense between them

And then I look at the Tory alternative. Plus ca change!

The Lib Dems were looking an interesting alternative, but have noticeably NOT been talking about Europe in recent months.

I'm not Euro sceptic enough to vote UKIP, not racist enough to vote BNP, not naive enough to vote Green. Unless I stand as an independent, I'll have no one to vote for!

Ernie, I did not say for one second that he didn't say it, I think you've missed my point completely – you cannot deny the fact that in this case free market economics were not allowed to reign, therefore you cannot draw a conclusion as to what would have happened if they had been, we simply don't know!

you cannot deny the fact that in this case free market economics were not allowed to reign, therefore you cannot draw a conclusion as to what would have happened if they had been, we simply don't know!

Blimey! I've heard more cogent arguments from people trying to convince me that Jesus is my saviour.

Just to worry you all further, there were rumours of a Bill being drafted that would have (very quietly) enabled Lord Mandelson to return to the elected chamber and beome Prime Minister, which he can't do while a Lord.

FWIW, I think the Tories screwed up ditching Hague as leader – I know he was an idiot at times, but he had something about him. Maybe a backbone? Hague for PM, Vince Cable as Chancellor – I'd vote for that!

you cannot deny the fact that in this case free market economics were not allowed to reign, therefore you cannot draw a conclusion as to what would have happened if they had been, we simply don't know!

Can you tell me the reason why every government on the planet is currently intervening rather than letting the market work?
Why does no one trust the market but you?
If you want equilibrium the market is great however if you want all your citizens to eat food and have jobs it may not be the best method- this is perhaps best demonstarted by every government on the planet being both interventionist and protectionist.

Almost all observers beleive that the main cause of the current banking crisis was a result of unrelgulated banking sector – which is the free market at work is it not?
I am glad we have you as the sole voice of reason in this current crisis#

Edit :No law is required for Mandy to renounce his peerage and become PM it has been done before with Alec Douglas-Home (Conservative)1963/4
Tony Benn also used this to renounce his hereditary peerage.

How do you think they could do this quietly Parliament is an open public debating forum with reporters etc?