Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 46 total)
  • Sustrans/Cyclepaths, what's the point?
  • thisisnotaspoon
    Free Member

    From the parents house to Derby (20 ish miles) theres a cycle path allong a dissused railway, but as soon as it gets near the town it takes a 5 mile detour to get past the A50.

    In Reading its quicker to ride for 3 miles on what is essentialy the M4 slip-road than it is to weave in and out the stupidly arranged housing estates and their cycle paths.

    The questions are;

    a)how long are developers going to insist on building crescent shaped roads, they may look nice but must add 5min to everyones journey and cant be safe as the number of junctions must surely corelate tot he number of accidents?

    b)Would the fortune spent on cyclepaths (especialy long distance ones that go nowhere) be better spent painting in a cycle lane on every main road in the country? Most main roads in towns are easily wide enough to lose 1m off each side?

    ourmaninthenorth
    Full Member

    I marshalled a time trial on the A50 on Saturday. I winced every time a truck squeezed past a rider. Sure, the riders may hev been averaging well over 30 mph (on the outward leg), but that's still a 20 mph speed differntial with the slowest trucks. never mind the sort of speeds cars can do down there….

    So, in essence, no, let's have some more paths, even if they are bit of a PITA and seem not to go where they're needed. Sometimes it's nice not to have to ride on the A50 or M4 sliproad or wherever.

    project
    Free Member

    Its reuseing and opening up a disused railway line , and stopping developers ever building on it, so that trains may one day return.

    Sadly due to a lot of ignorant and poorly trained motorists, rideing in town with children or sometimes walking is a scary experience.

    Alot of sustrans funding comes from the lottery, and donations by local councils,it takes us cyclists off the roads and lets us see different places, not the head of a fat, ignorant motorist,who sees us as a nuisance.

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    Aidy
    Free Member

    … but the more bikes on the road interacting with drivers, the more aware they'll have to be of us.

    Completely segregating cyclists from other road traffic isn't a good thing.

    MrAgreeable
    Full Member

    More traffic-free routes can only be a good thing. The people using them will probably end up using the roads once they get confident/lose patience, but they're still handy for beginners, families, wobbling home from the pub, etc.

    ransos
    Free Member

    Why must cyclepaths take the shortest route?

    ourmaninthenorth
    Full Member

    … but the more bikes on the road interacting with drivers, the more aware they'll have to be of us.

    Completely segregating cyclists from other road traffic isn't a good thing.

    Neither is it good only to have cycles and traffic mixing on every journey.

    It's possible to have both, and for both to be a good thing (and, ergo, a bad thing).

    I ride a reasonable amount and accept both as being valid ways to travel, and both having limitations.

    But, I wouldn't like to have only one option available to me, especially if that involved cars, buses and trucks.

    MrAgreeable
    Full Member

    Most main roads in towns are easily wide enough to lose 1m off each side?

    No they're not. Most modern roads were either built with motor vehicles in mind or widened (often with massive disruption, even demolition of buildings in some cases) when private motor transport became the norm. Another metre each side would mean removing bus lanes, on-street parking and pavements. Or demolishing a load more buildings. 🙄

    grumm
    Free Member

    be better spent painting in a cycle lane on every main road in the country?

    Painting cycle lanes on roads is pointless and possibly more dangerous than a normal road imo. Off-road cycle paths are much more pleasant and safer – the one I use to get to work is great.

    thisisnotaspoon
    Free Member

    Are we talkign about the same A50? The main road connecting Stoke and the M1? Fark me they mus be mad (and your mad enough to be marsheling it!)

    No they're not. Most modern roads were either built with motor vehicles in mind or widened (often with massive disruption, even demolition of buildings in some cases) when private motor transport became the norm. Another metre each side would mean removing bus lanes, on-street parking and pavements. Or demolishing a load more buildings.

    Ok, maybe not most, but a lot of roads must be wide enough for this, im not talking ever side street, but main arterial routes in and out of towns were built to get people arround quickly,

    Painting cycle lanes on roads is pointless and possibly more dangerous than a normal road imo. Off-road cycle paths are much more pleasant and safer – the one I use to get to work is great.

    there's no way you'll ever convince me to take the cycle path to work when its twice as long, has many times more junctions (4 roudabouts Vs god knows how many), is unlit, and could b very dificult to get upto any proper speed. Maybe if I happened to live in Worthigton (tiny village in south Derbyshire) and wanted to make use of the millions it must have cost to conect it via a cycle path to Derby it could be usefull. But I'd still probably miss out the last section.

    As for painted road bits beign pointless, I recon the probaby acidental 2ft of tarmac outside the solid white line on my three mile dice with death each mornign is probably the best bit of cyclepath in the country! Straight, flat, well made, rejoins the main carridgeway at junctions (much better than making 6 seperate mini T-junctions to get arround the roundabouts), and actualy goes where I want to be!

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    grumm – Member

    be better spent painting in a cycle lane on every main road in the country?

    Painting cycle lanes on roads is pointless and possibly more dangerous than a normal road imo. Off-road cycle paths are much more pleasant and safer – the one I use to get to work is great.

    I totally agree. cyclepaths alongside roads need to be sparated from the road by a kerb so cars don't park in them. the painted line is useless and usually disappears where it is needed most – at junctions.

    Look to how cyclepaths are done in the low countries to see what real cycle provision is.

    julianwilson
    Free Member

    painted cyclepaths on roads are also puncture-mungous round here! I much prefer the shared pavement type, or better still where there is also a little kerb between the footway and the cycleway too. But in urban areas they do get a bit silly, yes.

    Sometimes sustrans paths are just peachy though! Particularly the railway ones as they get more timid folk into cycling for fun (rather than to go somewhere) you can ride somewhere with your children (rather than just round and round the park) and thanks to the massive compulsory purchases that took place in the railway mania 1850's-90's, they are often much more direct. From my house to Plymbridge Woods by road is 20 minutes and getting on for 100m of climbing by either of the 2 road ways. 8 minutes and about 20m climb by the sustrans railway path.

    Bodmin to Wadebridge has a well-silly climb on it by road (never ridden it but overtook a roadie heaving painfully up it in bottom gear recently) or it is ever so slightly downhill and a piece of piddle on the Camel trail.

    FallOutBoy
    Free Member

    Why must cyclepaths take the shortest route?

    It depends what the intended use of the cycle path is. If its for hobby/family cycling, it doesn't matter as long as its a pleasant ride.

    But since part of sustrans aim is to get people out of their cars and on to a bike for their daily commute to work, road planners should realise cyclists want to get from A to B as quickly/easily as possible. You don't expect car drivers to take 5 mile detours because it gives them a nicer view.

    Aidy
    Free Member

    I much prefer the shared pavement type

    These are my most hated type. Pedestrians wander all over them, often with uncontrollable children and/or dogs.

    It's completely inappropiate for me, doing 25mph+ to share a common pathway.

    I totally agree. cyclepaths alongside roads need to be sparated from the road by a kerb so cars don't park in them. the painted line is useless and usually disappears where it is needed most – at junctions.

    I'm not sure I agree with this either. Kerbs would be seen to prohibit cyclists from using the road where necessary/desireable. And also I don't want to be separated from cars. I want cars to be more aware of cyclists. For this we need to be seen as serious road users.

    Where cyclepaths alongside roads are desireable, we need fines in place for cars who park in them – think like double yellow lines. How many drivers do you know that'll park on a double yellow?

    miketually
    Free Member

    There are some brilliant examples of how good segregated cycling facilities can be on http://hembrow.blogspot.com/, including some videos.

    I take a longer route to work, because there is a nice new well-maintained cycle path, rather than racing cars on the main roads.

    Darlington Cycling campaign are about to start a new campaign calling for every main arterial road in town to have decent cycle facilities on or alongside them. The current council policy is to use side streets or off-road routes, but we consider these to be insufficient, because the lack of other people means they feel unsafe for female cyclists, and they're also sometimes unlit and are always ungritted in the winter.

    This policy comes after working to encourage a group of non-cycling teenage girls to ride bikes, which has been a great success and recently won funding to increase in scale, and included the making of a documentary film showing the experiences of the girls as they started cycling, and on a trip to Bremen in Germany and of girls from Germany coming to Darlington.

    "Decent cycle facilities" does not mean a painted white line or a sign pointing down a parallel side street but a lane on the road, going in both directions, which is physically separated from the traffic and which gives cyclists priority over side roads.

    If you want to get people out of cars and onto bikes then you need to make is more convenient to go by bike. 1 in 3 trips in Darlington is short enough to be done by bike, is made by someone who is physically able to ride a bike, do not require heavy or unwieldy things to be carried and is made by someone who owns a bike, yet only 2% of trips are made by bike.

    Making main roads safe for cyclists may mean getting rid of protected right turns, making pedestrian crossings one stage rather than two, reducing the number of cars lanes at junctions, getting rid of on-street parking and reducing the speed limits in urban areas. This can be done, but it needs the political will to do it, which will only come as a result of sustained campaigning.

    We've been told this is impossible, because of the narrow roads, but we've seen roads of an identical width in Germany where they have found space for pedestrians, cyclists, cars and trams.

    grumm
    Free Member

    "Decent cycle facilities" does not mean a painted white line or a sign pointing down a parallel side street but a lane on the road, going in both directions, which is physically separated from the traffic and which gives cyclists priority over side roads.

    This.

    Nice post.

    ourmaninthenorth
    Full Member

    Are we talkign about the same A50? The main road connecting Stoke and the M1? Fark me they mus be mad (and your mad enough to be marsheling it!)

    The same. It was a tedious 2 odd hours of my life, though I assisted my own saftey by standing on the safe side of the armco.

    Having ridden a few times in the low countries (Netherlands and Belgium), I don't always agree that their approach is a panacea:

    – If there is a path, you have to use it, even if it is broken or filled with slower cyclists. Car drivers really don't like it if you're on the road.

    – Many of the paths change from being a painted lane, to a section of pavement (often squeezing the pedesrtrians against a building), to a demarkated path. Riding on the road in these circumstances is easier, but isn't expected.

    One thing we forget is this: we are more populous, and cruciall, more densely populated nation, where our towns and cities are often larger than those of the Low Counries. There are, simply, more people moving about over a larger (urban) area. I am sure that this has an effect on transport choices.

    And don't get me started on the differences in cycle behaviour and cycle types between Britain and the Low Countries….

    cookeaa
    Full Member

    I live in Reading, not sure which slip road you are referring to, some of the cycle lanes around town are quite good, as far as they go, but suffer from the age old town planning issue of simply ending at random or plonking you on the wrong side of a junction/busy road and having to negotiate all the cars you were trying to avoid by taking the bloody cycle lane in the first place. Hence it’s often less bother to simply mix it with the angry, angry motorists of Reading. Driving round Reading is a battle especially on the weekends therefore I do not drive around town unless absolutely required.

    As for Sustrans, I actually think it’s quite a good scheme, I took my Missus along the national cycle route for a ride to Theale on Monday, she’s not very confident on a bike, and hasn’t ridden in almost a year due to firing out a sprog.
    A gentle flat meandering tow path is ideal to help her get her confidence back up, if you want to get to Theale in a more efficient and timely fashion, get on the road bike, and pedal direct along the A4, you’d probably arrive a good 30mins+ ahead of us assuming some arse didn’t use his A4 to put you through a hedge…

    Sustrans routes are not for Nandralone poppers who have to get everywhere as fast as humanly possible, they are for octogenarians with panniers and no sense of urgency…

    BigButSlimmerBloke
    Free Member

    I found a route home from work that adds 10 minutes or so to the trip, buut it's on a cyclepath that eans 5 minutes less on a road. I'm more than happy to use it.

    Sustrans routes are not for Nandralone poppers who have to get everywhere as fast as humanly possible, they are for octogenarians with panniers and no sense of urgency…

    Just seen that – well said, that man

    epicsteve
    Free Member

    Before we moved office I used to have a Sustrans route pretty much door-to-door between home and office. I started off following it however after a while found that I ended up using pretty much none of it, as it was too indirect and, in several places, too rough for a road bike.

    Quite a few people commute by bike between Livingston and Edinburgh but I don't think anyone follows the Sustrans route to do it.

    BigDummy
    Free Member

    If a cycle route is going roughly where you're going then I love to get off the roads and follow them, even where there is a clear disadvantage in how long it's going to take. 🙂

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    One thing we forget is this: we are more populous, and cruciall, more densely populated nation

    Are you sure that is true? I don't think so Netherlands around 1000 people per sq mile, Uk around 650. Belgium 880

    ransos
    Free Member

    It depends what the intended use of the cycle path is. If its for hobby/family cycling, it doesn't matter as long as its a pleasant ride.

    But since part of sustrans aim is to get people out of their cars and on to a bike for their daily commute to work, road planners should realise cyclists want to get from A to B as quickly/easily as possible. You don't expect car drivers to take 5 mile detours because it gives them a nicer view.

    Well, the Bristol-Bath railway path isn't particularly direct, yet is massively popular, both with with commuters and leisure cyclists. Given that you don't have to stop at any junctions or lights, I don't think it takes more time, even though it's about 4 miles longer than going by road.

    Kramer
    Free Member

    If you want to get people out of cars and onto bikes then you need to make is more convenient to go by bike. 1 in 3 trips in Darlington is short enough to be done by bike, is made by someone who is physically able to ride a bike, do not require heavy or unwieldy things to be carried and is made by someone who owns a bike, yet only 2% of trips are made by bike.

    A proper cycle route is only part of the problem though. Safe storage of bicycles, and an integrated link into public transport are both needed as well.

    I could do my shopping on a commuter, the lack of somewhere secure to store the bike at Tescos is what stops me.

    cookeaa
    Full Member

    I should also have said I commute 20 odd miles from Reading to Rural Oxfordshire, it is (in my opinion at least) a dangerous route to cycle and the offroad options are just not direct enough, 1hr Vs ~2.5hrs…

    I don't enjoy road riding, and it's not that I'd mind say an extra 30min offroad detour but those just are not options, cycling both for commuters and leisure cyclists, is woefully under catered for in this country…

    I would like to see more sustrans type routes and infrastructure around the UK, I'd like to get more bikes off the roads, not because of some Jeremy Clarkson-esq hatred of cyclists, but simply for their own safety and enjoyment.

    ourmaninthenorth
    Full Member

    Are you sure that is true? I don't think so Netherlands around 1000 people per sq mile, Uk around 650. Belgium 880

    No. WShould have made clear it was on the basis of my experience.

    I should also have made it clear that much of these concerns relate only to urban or semi-urban areas, where I am pretty sure that the UK outscores those other nations for jamming people into built up areas and expecting them to interact.

    Or, perhaps it's because I base my experience against where I live: the North West of England, which seems to have far too many people in it.

    epicsteve
    Free Member

    I've lived in Holland and Belgium and my impression was that they packed even more people into their urban areas, however that might be more compared to here in Scotland than in England.

    thisisnotaspoon
    Free Member

    the slip road im refering too is lower earley way/whitley wood lane (B3270) that effectively take all the trafic form South West Reading over to junction 11 on the M4.

    The fact they'r made for retired people, not in a hurry, with panniers is exactly my point! You'll never convince people to cycle if you tell them its slower to start with, and we'd rather you stuck to this gravel path you can't realy get upto speed on, doesnt go where you want to be, takes a longer route to get there, and is that anoying compacted gravel that means your going to rattle the whole way there!

    MrAgreeable
    Full Member

    I thought you were a fearless god of off-road riding? Surely a bit of compacted gravel isn't going to cause you any problems?

    The surfacing on Sustrans paths can be a bit shit, but then again so can the surfacing on many roads. I've swapped from a road bike to a CX bike with wider tyres, as a lot of the quieter roads round here have drifts of gravel up the middle and potholes you could hide a badger in.

    EdwardH
    Full Member

    I worked with Sustrans in the eighties in Liverpool and one of their aims was to make it possible to travel almost anywhere in the county by bike without having to rely on the road network. They were also attempting to link all major population centres via a network of off road routs that would allow anyone with a bike to safely travel by bike. Their aim was not necessarily to help the daily commuter get to work, though I would imagine that has been taken into consideration since my time with them. Also Sustrans is a charity and has to make do with what it can get, from my perspective looking at things as they were in the mid eighties and the hurdles faced, they have done an amazing job.

    miketually
    Free Member

    I could do my shopping on a commuter, the lack of somewhere secure to store the bike at Tescos is what stops me.

    We don't have a Tesco, but almost all the supermarkets here have Sheffield stands to which a bike can be locked. Asda doesn't, so I lock it to the trolley park.

    miketually
    Free Member

    My most direct route to work is just over 3.4km, while the nicest one is just over 4.7km.

    The most direct route begins on a fairly quiet residential street, then plays dodge the dog walker on a riverside path before joining a busy arterial road (with bus lanes for some of it, but two points where I have to go into the right hand lane to go straight on) and going over a busy roundabout into the pedestrianised town centre, then up another arterial road to work for a little way.

    The nicer route starts off on a quiet residential street before using bike paths all the way to the town centre and joining the other route. This is almost 50% further, and takes longer because of waiting for crossings, but is much more pleasant.

    cookeaa
    Full Member

    the slip road im refering too is lower earley way/whitley wood lane (B3270) that effectively take all the trafic form South West Reading over to junction 11 on the M4.

    That’s OK Whitley/Lower Earley are full of scummy chavs anyway, I think the idea is to try and cull a few off by sending them down a deadly road on a push bike…
    Anyway all the **** Nimbys down that way whinged when they were told they were getting a BMX track, they don’t want to ride bikes round there…

    thisisnotaspoon
    Free Member

    I think the idea is to try and cull a few off by sending them down a deadly road on a push bike…

    Your wish just got granted, judgeing by the mess left behind (bike in hedge, BMW half on pavement, ambulance and police everywhere) some cyclist was being scraped off the road at 8:30 this morning.

    thisisnotaspoon
    Free Member

    incidently, the local rag doesn't want the track, everyone I speek to (ok, not a reprisenttative sample) is well up for it 😀

    mountaincarrot
    Free Member

    Well I applaud the Sustrans networks. They are not for everyone but brilliant for kids.

    I was in Devon in October, and my daughter rode 20 miles on her first outing with new bike on her 7th birthday. Bideford..Barnsable. Sea views, wildlife, tea shops, beaches, no crowds. I really couldn't fault it.

    Not exactly off-road XC, but they are built for a very different audience.

    ricochet_rob
    Free Member

    Agree with cookeaa, the national cycle routes are great, I commute from outside Reading (Aldermaston) to Newbury and its a great ride and very welcome indeed. Its that or the A4 which is just too mental in the rush hour.

    At the moment a section is closed for lock repairs so I ride through Thatcham to Newbury. The dedicated cycle lanes are a nightmare, full of dog mess, glass, kids and you have to stop at pretty much every junction.

    So for that section I brave the A4 and have really started to enjoy moving through the traffic, but drivers get annoyed at me for not using the cycle lanes and shout and beep….(as I overtake them)

    project
    Free Member

    Sustrans costs very little to support,i give up my free time as a volunteer to help man stands,to chat to other cyclists and families,to hand out free local maps,and hopefully i will as well as all the volunteers help to get more money spent on cycletracks and more people on bikes,until the car is removed from a lot of streets we will be stuck on some strange routeing options to avoid busy roads and junctions.

    Use the Sustrans routes because a lot are fitted with induction loops to count the number of users,and the more users,the more it makes it worthwhile to use,and the more money that can be got to make routes.

    westkipper
    Free Member

    IMO( of course)Sustrans are a greater immediate threat to my way of life than Al- Qaeda, ( and to be honest, I'd quite like to see former head John Grimshaw sent for extraordinary rendition!)
    Sustrans routes have three bad consequences- they remove safe existing pathways for pedestrians, they give beginner cyclists the idea that its a good idea to mix with walkers (often totally blurring the line between pavement and cyclelane) and worst, sustrans, at a national level, seem keen to promote the idea that bikes have no business being on roads ( y'know, public highways, that actually go where people want to go.
    I know some of you do value the few safe kids routes mentioned above, but it really is a slippery slope, and I can see some helpful legislator removing us all from the roads ( for our own safety of course)
    Sustrans will probably be quite happy to agree, provided they get a bit more funding.

    westkipper
    Free Member

    And another thing…
    Before you hold up the examples of some countries as being some kind of cycling nirvana, remember that in Holland, Germany, and a few other places, where a cyclelane exists, no matter how bad, the cyclist shouldn't be on the road. Find yourself on a main road in Germany and you'll soon realise that what passes for aggresive road rage here is small potatos.

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