I ride a giant and love it. I saw the Carbon Nomad and thought must have it so convinced the GF to let me buy a new bike which she agreed to.
Just taken one for a demo and hated it. I just could not get used to the suspension so please help me understand.
Giant uses Maestro and Santa cruz uses VPP right?
Does this refer to a type of suspension and if so how do they differ?
How many types of suspension are out there and what other bikes uses Maestro for me to try?
Thanks
Differences between types of suspension are not as great as magazines/unthinking readers/brands would like you to believe.
Moving from a HT to a FS bike is a learning process, many start with shorter travel bikes before they get it.
EDIT - yo uride Maestro just now? VPP does ride differently, not sure what else I can add
My giant is a reign so is a FS but i just cant seem to get on with the Santa Cruz suspension.
Oh could be lots of other things - shocks, set-up, geometry too.
Moving from a HT to a FS bike is a learning process
actually I found the reverse much harder! On a hardtail the back end was all over the place for several rides 
There are many reasons, including set-up why you might not like a bike. Bikes suit different styles of riding as well - you need to have a good think what you are going to use it for and get one that suits.
I can't think of anything better than to speak to people who know these things, who ride themselves in a similar way and who can see how you ride.
A good local bike shop, or some sensible mates would be a start point.
Three main types of suspension:
Single pivot
Four bar
Dual link
with roughly a billion (perhaps I exaggerate) variations on each with differing pivot point placements, linkages etc.
Maestro is exclusive to Giant, but it's a type of dual link. Could be worth trying something with a dw-link or perhaps a Felt with their equilink (technically not a dual link, but similar). The only problem, VPP is also a dual link.
SFB: Did you find your FS skills getting better as a result of riding the HT, or is that a load of bull?
SFB that is pure laziness!
Did you find your FS skills getting better as a result of riding the HT, or is that a load of bull?
FS removes the need for any skill
Cheers. Better stop this discussion quickly though, or wel'll end up with another 'HT vs. FS' thread.
I've seen SFB's photos. Back ends all over the place, indeed.
Warrenpfo, it was almost certainly down to bike not being properly set up. Two years ago I tested Giant Reign, SC Blur LT (identical suspension to the Nomad) and a Trek fuel on 3 consecutive days on local trails.
Discounted the Trek, because of non existent small bump sensitivity but susequently found that may have been because the suspension was not set up properly
The difference between the Reign and the Blur was night and day. The Reign was very competent but dull. The Blur did everything that bit better, felt more connected, and just felt more fun - encouraged you to be more aggressive. There is a lot to set up to get it right which is a faff, but once done you never need to change it
Would suggest you go back for another quick ride. Get the sag set correctly at both ends and get both rebounds set around the middle
CM---Thanks for the advice, i am going to givethe chaps at Pedal&Spoke a call and see if they have a bike with a different setup than i can take out. Will keep all updated.
What's 'wrong' with the reign?
Start by figuring that out and go from there maybe? Or is it just a new bike for the sake of it?
Have to say, it strikes me as a bit naive that you see a bike that looks flash etc but is quite different to what you have then you expect to love it.
You don't need a different bike. Just get them to properly set up the demo bike for you. Sag, rebound, propedal off, etc
i've ridden a couple of nomads in car parks and such and didn't like them either. seemed to have tons of pedal feedback which made them feel all jerky. maybe it was down to bike setup or the fact that i am so used to riding the best suspension system - 4bar. would still like to try one out properly though.
aren't maestro & DW link very similar?
Right...It is very much a new bike for new bike sake. Secondly call it naive call it foolish but I am sure you have a dream bike for what ever reason and if you get the chance to ride it you will. If that dream bike does not live up to your expectations you will be disappointed but I am not saying it’s a crap bike or that I am going to buy it anyway. All I am trying to find out is why the bike did not live up to my expectations and what else out there has the same feel as the current bike I have but newer.
From the sounds of things i may not have had it set up right and so am going back to give it another go with a different fork and shock. I would agree that the reign is "dull" and maybe the nomad was too lively for me.
Hope that helps.
4 bar is dual link. You could argue there are only 2 suspension types, 4 bar and single pivot. You can then have linkage driven single pivots which have a tuned leverage rate curve but the characteristics arising from axle path and pivot placement (squat and rise) are the same as a non linkage single pivot.
Maestro is just what giant call their 4 bar design. Its good, there's no doubt about it. Many people say its a rip off of dw link purely because it looks very similar but the truth is that minor position changes of the pivots can have a dramatic effect of the suspension properties. One of the major defining factors with vpp (what Santa Cruz and intense call there suspension design - still a 4 bar but with the links rotating in opposite directions) is axle path. If I remember correctly, it has an 's' shaped path which means at around the 30% travel mark (sag point) the axle starts a rearward path to help take square edge hits. For this reason vpp bikes tend to work best with plenty of sag so you are sitting well into the travel. I'm unsure about the leverage rate curve of the nomad and I've never ridden one in anger so I'm not talking from experience, just what I think I know about the design! Vpp is a bit like marmite, people either love it or just think its weird but I'm sure once you're body has adapted you will think its great.
Every manufacturer will try and tell you their suspension design is best. Some are better than others or are perceived to be better due to hype or other factors like geometry and shock choice/setup. Truth is EVERY design is a compromise, you design for one characteristic and you make another worse, its all about balancing everything to suite the use of that particular bike. Designing a suspension frame is tricky and it does your head in!
Don't think your analysis is right Tim, 4-bars have their brakes on a separate bar to the wheel, and the maestro system is not that different to a single pivot.
Anyway I doubt anyone here knows enough/has ridden enough bikes to comment authoritatively on axle path & ride characteristics - manufacturers might do, but we'll never get any decent info from them as they are just wanting to sell their bikes!
And OP - everyone's bought a flash/dream bike only to be disappointed - I've done it twice!
And OP - everyone's bought a flash/dream bike only to be disappointed - I've done it twice!
I dont want to make that mistake as this is a once in a life time buy for me....well maybe twice.
the full suss does NOT remove the need for skills.
if you have none, you have none. regardless of bike.
vice versa.
ride the bike you want to.
Very wise Warren, learn from my mistake! (Was with a mk1 Nomad too!)
Blimey. Maestro is very different from single pivot and is still a 4 bar! It just has shortened links. Look at an fsr, the seat stay is the wheel carrying 'bar' and the brake is also attached to this. Look at the maestro, the wheel carrying bar also has the brake attached to it. Shorten the lower chain stay link of an fsr and extend the seat stay link to take its place and boom what have you got? A short link 4 bar like a maestro. This is not to say the characteristics of the 2 designs are similar just because they can be thrown into the same group, faaaaar from it. I think this is where people get confused. 4 bar designs are incredibly tuneable for every characteristic so they are all very different but at the end of the day they are all 4 bar linkages, wheel carrier, main frame and two connecting links.
I could go into more detail of how a maestro is different from a single pivot but my fingers need a rest from typing on my phone!
This is not to say the characteristics of the 2 designs are similar just because they can be thrown into the same group, faaaaar from it.
My point exactly - your analysis is a bit useless.
I could go into more detail of how a maestro is different from a single pivot but my fingers need a rest from typing on my phone!
My point exactly - your analysis is a bit useless.
I'm not analysing anything, just stating the facts. I see where you are coming from - if a maestro is so different in its characteristics from an FSR for example, why not call one a dual link and one a 4 bar rather than both a 4 bar? Well if you ask someone to define a dual link, I think they would struggle to do so. A suspension design with 2 links perhaps? But then an FSR, Ellsworth "ICT", Maestro, DW, VPP, Lapierre, Lawwill etc. etc. can all be grouped into this category and not just a Maestro, DW or VPP (these are widely referred to as short link 4 bar designs).
The point of all this is not just a pointless argument over what to call a particular design, but it’s the fact that all these linkage designs are all an evolution of, and follow the basic principles of a 4 bar system i.e. a main frame, a wheel carrier (swingarm if you like) and two connecting links. What makes all these designs that come under the 4 bar umbrella different from a single pivot is that the pivot point (or instant force centre, positioned where the force lines through the 2 pivot points of each of the 2 links intersects) moves as the suspension compresses and is hence often referred to as a “virtual pivot”. Warrenpfo, just to clarify, the VPP design or “Virtual Pivot Point” is just the name Santa Cruz and Intense use. ALL 4 bar designs have a “virtual pivot”, don’t be fooled into thinking Santa Cruz or Intense bikes are the only bikes to have a virtual pivot…marketing guff.
So that brings me nicely on to how a Maestro is very different from a single pivot. Axle paths may be similar (I think Maestro is a bit more vertical at the beginning before moving forward at the end whereas a single pivot will obviously always be an arch of a circle…difference in riding terms could be negligible) but the point through which the linkage forces act on a Maestro moves as the suspension compresses, with a single pivot, it does not! The forces act through the main pivot, which is obviously fixed. What does this mean in the real world? It means that the behaviour of the suspension under braking and powered acceleration can be finely tuned by changing links and pivots to adjust how the virtual pivot moves.
Now Warrenpfo, hopefully this explains a little bit about why the characteristics can change so much between designs. As I said before, one of the main defining features of the VPP system is the “s” shaped axle path which some find hard to get used to as its very different from a predictable circular curve of a single pivot or a Maestro. The virtual pivot position of a Maestro goes down and the back at the last bit of travel, the VPP moves forward I think, both giving different squat (acceleration) and rise (braking) characteristics. Without analysing it more closely I can’t be more specific about that.
Something else to note and what bike companies don’t tell you is that all suspensions analysis is based on some fundamental assumptions, because you have to start somewhere. One being COG height is often assumed (DW assumes this) to be equal to the wheel base and chain line is often assumed to be in the middle. COG obviously changes constantly with body movement and non of us riding suspension bikes only use one gear! Be wary of a manufacturer (rocky mountain) saying their design is good because the line through the pivots is parallel to the chain and so you don’t get any feedback. This might be true if you only used this gear.
phew
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