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So if Orange...

57 posts & 36 voices | Started 2 years ago by IvanDobski | Latest reply from thebikechain

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IvanDobski - Member

decided to move production of the 5 etc to the far-east and with the money saved move the frames away from their "rustic" look to some hydroformed vision of loveliness whilst maintaining their single pivot simplicity and same basic frame shape what do you reckon would happen to the brand?

Would their reputation for solidity vanish once foreigners were involved (as most of the white, English speaking west in general and STW in particular knows, they're the only people who can weld properly...)

Would their single pivot design suddenly be classed as outdated and inefficient by the media/fanboys as it wouldn't be reflected in the physical appearance of the frame?

We were on about this whilst out riding the other day - how fickle peoples perceptions of a product can be and how they could be reversed overnight...

(Oh and unless I've got very lucky I don't think Orange are moving anything anywhere!)

What other brands could be transformed if part of their core identity was changed?

Posted 2 years ago #
John_Rowlands - Member

Apart from making exceedingly good bikes I chose orange because its a 100% british firm as i work in engineering. So it might of affected my choice....

Posted 2 years ago #
Richyb - Member

I don't think their frames look 'rustic' anymore.

Posted 2 years ago #
tails - Member

i think it would make them appeal to a different crowd, i dislike the orange look but like the santa cruz look both companies bikes probably ride good.

Posted 2 years ago #
vdubber67 - Member

'Rustic'? Surely you mean 'agricultural'?

I love my 5 by the way...

Posted 2 years ago #
thisisnotaspoon - Member

SC, Cannondale, Iron horse (complete bikes) are all made over there so dont think it does much for reputation (other than Orange having some of the prettiest welding out there IMO)

I suppose they could hydroform the DT as well but whats the point, they need to link up the HT, pivot and BB in that line, why put it anywhere else?

Posted 2 years ago #
IvanDobski - Member

Richyb - Member
I don't think there frames look 'rustic' anymore.

You have seen a modern 5 right?!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not slagging the bike off - it's just an example of how peoples perceptions of bikes can be influenced.

Posted 2 years ago #
CaptainBudget - Member

"Rustic" or "Outdated aren't words I'd use to describe Orange

"Classic" and "Solid" are closer.

I know orange moved the P7 to Taiwan, but I genuinely doubt they'd do that to the 5 or 224, a lot of their appeal comes from being made in Blighty! (and being absolutely awesome bikes in the first place!). Same with Hope really.

Posted 2 years ago #
Richyb - Member

[/quoteYou have seen a modern 5 right?!quote]

Yeah i've got a 2008 five and used to own a 2004 one and i think the finish and frame building techniques are much better now, do you think this alpine frame looks 'rustic'?

Posted 2 years ago #
IvanDobski - Member

That's part of my point though - some of the appeal of Orange comes from being British which is fair enough.

But hypothetically speaking, if they moved to Taiwan would their appeal vanish overnight when it became an "outdated, simplistic design mass-produced by foreigners" rather than a semi boutique/niche (insert favoured term here) highly evolved, efficient design built by local craftsmen.

If all proper bikes were produced by a single Taiwanese factory with no patriotism, semi-xenophobia and misplaced confidence in your countries manufacturing skills to get involved and sold at X% above cost, which bikes would thrive in a meritocracy and which would die a quick death?

Posted 2 years ago #
GaVgAs - Member

I think Orange have a design base that works,Its as simple as that.Theres no doubt there bikes could be lighter,and possibly built using hydraforming,or carbon fibre,but without major investment and tooling is it really practical or neccacery when the bikes work so well out of the crate?

Building bikes in a small production run is what keeps the brand so special.
They still sound like a filling cabinet full of spanners crashing down a flight of stairs tho!

Posted 2 years ago #
IvanDobski - Member

Rustic? Er yeah. Mismatched tube profiles, highly visible panelling and an inconsistant mix of angular and curved. It looks like a classic function over form frame - which to an extent is probably the point. That doesn't stop it being an excellent frame though.

So leaving Orange aside (some owners are easily riled tonight it seems ) and using a different example - if Trek had left Klein to run its own affairs after the takeover and continue producing what they did best, would the brand have declined anyway purely because it was "tainted" by its association with Trek?

Posted 2 years ago #
compositepro - Member

hydroforming another buzz word which is mucho misunderstood
orange could press their monocoques for absolutely less than they bend metal for they are just asking the wrong people how to do it

http://www.techeblog.com/index.php/tech-gadget/chinese-farmer-uses-scrap-metal-to-build-working-helicopter

when we were building the san andreas bikes the process was so simple and cheap it was unbelievable

Posted 2 years ago #
wl - Member

I've ridden Oranges for years, hardtails and full-sus - couldn't give a monkey's where they're made, whether it's by robots or what they look like. They ride great and they're simple and reliable.

Posted 2 years ago #
lovell - Member

to go to the far east and make these bikes would not allow Orange to do small runs of frames and experiment. They would end up with generic designs. Trek,Spec,Giant etc .. have to make bikes that handle well in various countries/conditions,this allows them volume/value. Orange make a bike for the UK (well Yorkshire!) and if other markets like it then all good. I don't think they are saying its the only way to make bikes but it does suit they're needs and they turn out some great bikes

Posted 2 years ago #
james - Member

"Surely you mean 'agricultural'?"

Surely thats a contradiction on what was said originally?

Agricultural?

"Trek,Spec,Giant etc .. have to make bikes that handle well in various countries/conditions,this allows them volume/value"

Yes but that doesn't mean thwy would have to too. Think about the british designed bikes made abroad like* Cotic, on-one, dialled bikes, ragley etc ..

*Correct me if I'm wrong

Posted 2 years ago #
hora - Member

I don't care where my frame is from as long as the Customer service and quality is 100%.

Mazzochipoo is a case in point. I wont touch any of their products again. Regardless of how 'good' they get in future. Even if they come with a free BJ from LittleBoots (ok, I might reconsider if that happened).

Posted 2 years ago #
vdubber67 - Member

James - yes, agricultural in the sense that they're strong, built for a purpose etc rather than being all about 'looks'. So yes, a bit like a tractor

Posted 2 years ago #
chakaping - Member

Rustic to me means they'd thatch the frames, and hang horse brasses on them.

Interesting question though, and yes of course they'd lose loads of fans who'd accuse them of selling out.

Posted 2 years ago #
Munqe-chick - Member

Youve already mentioned brands that used to trade heavily on their "built in the USA" status, SC and Cannondale. Americans are far more pariotic/nationalistic than the British where consumerism is concerned (partly as they produce more goods), but it appears a brand can survive a volte face if it has a strong enough reputation. Cannondale were synonymous with US-built aluminium, now they are Chinese-built carbon fibre theyve effectively binned 20yrs of heritage but are still viewed as a quality brand.

If there is underlying value in the product (performance, build quality etc) then it should survive, they just lose a marketing point.

Posted 2 years ago #
lcj - Member

I think the more pertinent question is: If Dirt/STW/MBR/What MTB stopped their adoration and found something new, would the market then be flooded with Fives that had suddenly become outdated and unfit for purpose?

Personally I hope they become unpopular for that reason, as it means a bargain for me!

Posted 2 years ago #
hora - Member

Cannondale went tits up bigtime though. The new owners took a different viewpoint?

Posted 2 years ago #
GaryLake - Member

Why does everyone assume Orange's are heavy?

A Five frame is lighter than a Commy Super 4 ffs! Same as a Heckler, Pace 506. In the Trail bike of the year test it's always near the lighter end rather than the heavier...

Back on topic, I think I'd buy one if it was made overseas. I've yet to ride anything to better it and I quite like the looks!

Posted 2 years ago #
pjt201 - Member

Munqe-chick - Member

...Cannondale were synonymous with US-built aluminium, now they are Chinese-built carbon fibre theyve effectively binned 20yrs of heritage but are still viewed as a quality brand.

Cannondale still make all their alu frames in Connecticut though, apparently they were going to send that to Taiwan too but it was a step too far.

Posted 2 years ago #
hora - Member

Then they'd have to lay off their production staff? I've never bought a Dyson- not because I'm particularly millitant or don't like the Vacs- it was the inventors stance at the time. Soon as he got a whiff that it wasnt a 'patriotic-venture' he shipped it all off.

I think in part- the 'Made in England' aspect does appeal to a global buying audience. Gives some of the Orange frames abit of character. All goes to the far east? I reckon Orange would make higher profits on what they do sell but they'd sell less.

Posted 2 years ago #
racefaceec90 - Member

i would love to be able to afford an orange 5.but i must admit that part of it is due to them being built in blighty,for blighty conditions.

Posted 2 years ago #
Young Dave riley - Member

I must admit that the "Made in Halifax" badge adds a certain something to the brand. Hope and Triumph motorbikeshave the same effect.
And then there's the Union Jack on Whytes,which for some reason ,really pisses me off.Same with the niche brands like Cotic.Just another Taiwanese frame....and then there's Yeti..handbuilt since 1864.What a load of tosh! (and I own one of their "hand built 575s)

Posted 2 years ago #
Kramer - Member

Got to say, for some reason the Alpine 160 AM appeals to me.

Posted 2 years ago #
Guybrush - Member

My new ST4 has a sticker on it that says "Designed in Britain"

So where's it made then?

The other sticker says "Orange Mountain Bikes. Handbuilt with pride in Halifax Yorkshire England since 1988."

Which is a bit ambiguous to me...

Posted 2 years ago #
stevomcd - Member

Kramer: get one, they're lush!

Posted 2 years ago #
hora - Member

I've been to Halifax. I imagine its made on an estate inbetween two burnt out cars with lunchbreaks at a local hotdog van

Posted 2 years ago #
nickegg - Member

Orange may lose out in the buying power stakes when it comes to components but most items like that are not going to make a huge difference to how the bikes rides, despite what some might think!

Also, they look the way they do because Orange started off the back of an existing sheet metal company so they just utilised what they already knew and the technolgy they had to hand.

The bikes appeal to me, as does Hope, because i appreciate the CNC technology and those companies approach to design and manufacturing. But then i am a CNC/CAD design technician so i guess i know what really goes into that kind of technology!

Posted 2 years ago #
MrNutt - Member

I ride an Orange (UK built) and love it, I also have a Henry vacuum cleaner and I play an old Hofner Senator. All those things make me smile, not because they are made in England, but because they are just bloody good!

Posted 2 years ago #
GaryLake - Member

It's also kind of nice when our manufacturing industry is dead and a laughing stock to find something we're still the best at making!

Posted 2 years ago #
ScottChegg - Member

I've been to Orange. It's in a faceless industrial estate in the outskirts of Halifax.

What they do with so few people is astonishing. On One etc have a bike brand with less people, but don't get involved with the manufacturing. Giant make bikes with hydroforming on every tube, all in the Far East but they don't look any more or less like a bike in my eyes.

I've had an Orange bike in some form or another since 1992. So I'm with them.

Posted 2 years ago #
pantsonfire - Member

I would love an Orange 5 but I wish they were a bit cheaper 2nd hand every time I see one for sale which isnt often they seem to go for silly money.

I would like one because I like the looks, the simplicity of the suspension and the ruggedness. Being made in Britain is nice but comes a long way down the list.

Posted 2 years ago #
Bimbler - Member

With the fall in the value of the pound and the rising standard of living (and therefore wages?) in Taiwan how much cheaper is it to make bikes in Taiwan?

Posted 2 years ago #
nickegg - Member

The comment above regarding their second-hand value speaks volumes about the brand, how often do you see heavily discounted Orange bikes?

The same can't be said for many other brands.

As for being heavy, well, they may look heavy but those of us who have actually ridden one will confirm they most certainly aren't!

I bought a second-hand 2007 frame to see if i liked it over a year ago. I did so i've just bought a new 2009 one.

Posted 2 years ago #
GaryLake - Member

As for being heavy, well, they may look heavy but those of us who have actually ridden one will confirm they most certainly aren't!

I'd even go as far to say they're pretty light for what they can do...

I'm off downhilling on mine next weekend lol

Nickegg: btw, I was the guy driving the group who bumped into you in services on the way to Brechfa...

(Invite to Cheesy Riders on the way)

Posted 2 years ago #
igm - Member

I like the fact that when I over tightened a bolt and stripped the thread, I nipped down to Holywell Green, Halifax in my lunch hour (OK 90 to 120 minutes) and the helicoiled it for me while I waited. For free.

Try getting that from Cannondale (remember when they were known as Cannonfail due to their less than perfect alumimium fabrication)

Where I work (Castleford) I could probably get that service from On-One / PlanetX too.

Guess what three bikes I have. (by the way Nickegg, I got £500 off my Five at Stif!)

Posted 2 years ago #