Sales led organisations (corporate rant)

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Sales led organisations (corporate rant)

44 posts & 24 voices | Started 4 months ago by Kryton57 | Latest reply from geordiemick00

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Kryton57 - Member

What is it about some organisations where"Sales is King"? Particularly when they need the rest of us to help for them to be successful, earn their 6 figure bonuses and trips to the Maldives etc?

And then to cap it all off they've "reorganised" with several Junior members gettng key promotions due to "their" success, and the rest of us have been flooded with sickening corporate statements of positivity and message's of how we must support their cause, and how "they" have discovered a new strategy for success (the one we've been talking about for four years btw) and now they've the gall to phone us up and speak to us in tone's as though they are our bosses.

Honestly, the sheer arrogance and pomposity of it all.... <breathes out>

Posted 4 months ago #
don simon - Member

Have you ever considered that 'they' might actually be right?

Posted 4 months ago #
Kryton57 - Member

What, making the rest of the organisation feel like second class citizens while the boast about thier oodles of cash and trips away, whilst other hard working people pulling 60+ hour weeks on flat salary's inside the office walls all day to make sure they have something to sell?

How exactly is that "right"?

Posted 4 months ago #
mastiles_fanylion - Member

Get a job in the sales department then - it sounds like it is dead easy to make oodles of money.

Posted 4 months ago #
iDave - Member

Become a sales person then

Posted 4 months ago #
simonm - Member

yeh, Sales is a peice of piss, you just knock on peoples doors and they buy stuff off you... no pressure to cover overhead of business at all.

Posted 4 months ago #
don simon - Member

How exactly is that "right"?

I'm quite sure that they are not, as you say, boasting and it's just that you're having a bit of a Monday rant. As others have said get an applkication form and become a salesman, you know one of the people that's keeping your company afloat, one of those people who doesn't have a clock off time, one of those...... Mleh, I give up.

Posted 4 months ago #
b r - Member

Increase in sales - reward the Sales team

Decrease in sales - blame the market/customers/back-office/moon etc

Posted 4 months ago #
Kryton57 - Member

don simon - Member
How exactly is that "right"?

..... you know one of the people that's keeping your company afloat, one of those people who doesn't have a clock off time, one of those...... Mleh, I give up.

Thing is, I know that 50% of who I'm talking about are not that way inclined at all.

b r - Member
Increase in sales - reward the Sales team

Decrease in sales - blame the market/customers/back-office/moon etc

Yup, indeed.

Posted 4 months ago #
oldnpastit - Member

I used to work for a company a bit like that. It was pretty depressing. Especially the annual sales conference in Hawaii (no, I didn't get invited). "Pull up and to the right" was the battle cry of our glorious leader.

However, it turned out that our glorious leader was an idiot, who only hired people who wouldn't show him up, and so it gradually sank under the weight of its corporate incompetence. It was then bought by a bigger, richer, but equally incompetent company, run by someone with a background in purchasing.

Eventually, they made me redundant and shipped my job out to India. And after a a few years working for a very small but incompetent company I now work for a very large and scarily competent company with lots of money and sensible management. It's not always easy, but it's just so much better and more rewarding.

Plus our sales people are actually clueful (mostly).

Summary: look at the results. If their arrogant pompous sales people bring home the bacon, then fair enough, but otherwise find a job with a company that knows what it's doing.

Posted 4 months ago #
tonyg2003 - Member

In some ways the OP describes sales absolutely correctly - most sales people are very self confident and usually not the most sensitive souls. I'm not surprised they have wound him up.

However without the successes of sales the OP's job would probably be much harder and the company would probably be in trouble. Be grateful your sales people are doing well and hope that their success trickles down the company to you or if you want to directly share their success - move to sales. However it's a constant treadmill and you are only as good as your last sale.

Sales shouldn't be a dirty word in the UK.

Posted 4 months ago #
scuzz - Member

Is the product / service you're developing and they are selling any different to your competitors?

hope that their success trickles down the company to you or if you want to directly share their success - move to sales.

The OP is stating that without the product / service there would be nothing to sell. Success should not 'trickle down' - it should be there for everyone who played a part in the sale - including those that facilitate it without direct client contact. It's exactly the trickle down attitude he hates. It's a team game, people. The OP knows this, but the Sales guys don't seem to grasp it.

Posted 4 months ago #
samuri - Member

you know one of the people that's keeping your company afloat, one of those people who doesn't have a clock off time, one of those...... Mleh, I give up.

I suspect this is the attitude the op is complaining about.

You see, lots of other people in the business will also be keeping it afloat, won't have clock off times, one of those etc etc.....
.....But they don't get sales bonuses or get taken off to race meetings and holidays for just doing their jobs.

All too often the people in the business will be told about the brilliant job the sales guys are doing but how often do they get told about the effort the engineering guys are putting in? All components are essential to the business success.

Posted 4 months ago #
don simon - Member

All components are essential to the business success.

Exactly, which is why I am poking fun...

Posted 4 months ago #
vinnyeh - Member

Thing is, I know that 50% of who I'm talking about are not that way inclined at all.

Maybe then, the back end of the organisation aren't providing them with all the unselfish support that they need to allow them to function to their full potential? Nothing worse than a morning dealing with some surly analyst/helpdesk functionary etc etc to spoil the mood of the afternoon's pitch

Generally though, the risk/reward ratio is a lot higher for sales staff than for back office, just part of the deal.

Posted 4 months ago #
Kryton57 - Member

samuri - Member
you know one of the people that's keeping your company afloat, one of those people who doesn't have a clock off time, one of those...... Mleh, I give up.

I suspect this is the attitude the op is complaining about.

You see, lots of other people in the business will also be keeping it afloat, won't have clock off times, one of those etc etc.....
.....But they don't get sales bonuses or get taken off to race meetings and holidays for just doing their jobs.

All too often the people in the business will be told about the brilliant job the sales guys are doing but how often do they get told about the effort the engineering guys are putting in? All components are essential to the business success.

Nail, head. plus...

tonyg2003 - Member
In some ways the OP describes sales absolutely correctly - most sales people are very self confident and usually not the most sensitive souls. I'm not surprised they have wound him up.

... I'd be the opposite to this, a sensitive underconfident soul me, and like many, no pay rise for several years and no promotion or pat on the back, hence perhaps how affected I feel. I need a thicker skin, and perhaps to learn that "thats just how life is" I guess.

Posted 4 months ago #
vinnyeh - Member

When I worked for a well known insurance company it was made perfectly clear by the chairman that wherever we were in the organisation structure, or whatever our pay grade, that we were really only there to support the (call centre) sales staff, who were in financial terms, some of the least rewarded people in the business. If it wasn't for them, none of us would have jobs.

Posted 4 months ago #
samuri - Member

Also....

lets say you're part of the business not related to sales. You're a smart guy and you spot an area where significant savings can be made. You do a lot of hard work, do all that working in your own time and stuff and then you *save* the company a lot of money so the company is all that money better off, just as if you'd have clinched a big sale.

Bonus? Day at the races? Holiday? LOL! Get back to work.

Posted 4 months ago #
mastiles_fanylion - Member

To be fair every job done by every person in any organisation has a purpose and a value, whether a sales manager, an engineer, an admin clerk or the MD. I think sales people come in for special mention in some businesses as their job can be especially difficult, continually finding new leads, nurturing contacts and getting the business in the first place. Yes if they had no product/service to sell or any admin staff to support them then their job would be pointless but they are just at the sharp end of the stick in many organisations and there is no better way to encourage sales staff than with good rewards - it seems an obvious tactic.

Posted 4 months ago #
tonyg2003 - Member

You're a smart guy and you spot an area where significant savings can be made. You do a lot of hard work, do all that working in your own time and stuff and then you *save* the company a lot of money so the company is all that money better off, just as if you'd have clinched a big sale.

The issue is that it's easy to define sales success, reward it (sales people to demand the rewards too), whereas other instrinsic areas are much harder to quantify and reward. That's just the way it is.

Posted 4 months ago #
phil.w - Member

and there is no better way to encourage sales staff than with good rewards - it seems an obvious tactic.

indeed, though when it's done to the extent of marking them out as seemingly more valued than the rest of the employees it is actually detrimental to the company in the long term. It's much better to have all your staff working together, not as separate departments that don't get on.

This is why any extra rewards should be out of sight in pay packets not obvious gifts like holidays, days out etc.

Posted 4 months ago #
ourmaninthenorth - Member

OP in "finding out the world doesn't owe him a living" shocker

Posted 4 months ago #
scuzz - Member

OP in "finding out the world doesn't owe him a living" shocker

I'm not sure how this is warrented - the OP has a living. He appears to be looking for the recognition he feels he deserves.
Why don't you just say 'life's unfair' next time?

Posted 4 months ago #
MrNutt - Member

Why not kick off an internal incentive for those not in sales, how about you set performance targets that if you reach them you are rewarded?

Do you expect the sales teams to be thinking "we should really be drawing up an inventive plan for the back office" after all their time is surely better spent doing that rather than actively pursuing opportunities?

Jesus one thing that damages company morale more than anything is people who rather than constructively improve and develop their own lot they just sit there expelling hot negative air!

Posted 4 months ago #
don simon - Member

how about you set performance targets that if you reach them you are rewarded?

And if you don't you're fired...

Posted 4 months ago #
GaryLake - Member

Problem with "sales led" businesses in a service industry (I have experience of both software and design) is that a stiff targets and rewards system nearly always leads to 'bad' jobs being taken on.

The actual doers are left with a PITA client (the sort that has screwed the sales guy down beyond all common sense) and a budget where you've no hope in making it profitable.

Leads to very bad blood (doers are ungrateful bastards, sales guys are the ignorant cocks effectively selling your soul at a cut price), and as a few have mentioned, it eventually buckles under itself as the bad but 'successful' sales guys move on before they're caught and the production team usually walks.

Only places I've worked where there's been any degree of longterm success coupled with actual harmony and wellbeing in the work place is when there's no segregation of sales and production...

Posted 4 months ago #
Bushwacked - Member

Grass is always greener...

I work in sales and have had the good times and the bad. In the recent recession my average pay went down by 30% and I almost was made redundant as a result of falling sales through no fault of my own - market disappeared overnight. Imagine the stress when you have a family and mortage and you can barely make ends me.

The good times are where I work my ass off (like the past few months where I've been working 10-12 hours days most days) and some deals come off and some don't. The sad thing is when you can't get the support from people elsewhere in the business to deliver.

We're quite lucky in where we work as we woprk as a team with our colleagues in other areas and issues such as the above are less common. In fact recently someone in our product team created something which totally changed our offering to the market and I recommended her for an award. She was rewarded, in fact I was quite jealous as she got a holiday to the carribean!!! I've never had that.

I've seen a few people who have moved from support roles into Sales and really enjoyed it but have found that it isnt as easy as they thought.

Posted 4 months ago #
mastiles_fanylion - Member

This is why any extra rewards should be out of sight in pay packets not obvious gifts like holidays, days out etc.

I guess this is because the company can get deals with travel agents so the perceived value of the gift is higher than the actual.

And it is also good for team building if the rewards are team rewards - my wife used to work for a business travel agent organising all these kind of events and regularly booked very fancy holidays on their behalf to some of the world's top hotels and usually they were team events so although they are 'rewards' they are also business related and help continue to build the team.

I quite liked it though - we got ourselves some nice holidays out of it too with the freebies my wife was given

Posted 4 months ago #
simon_g - Member

Problem with "sales led" businesses in a service industry (I have experience of both software and design) is that a stiff targets and rewards system nearly always leads to 'bad' jobs being taken on.

The actual doers are left with a PITA client (the sort that has screwed the sales guy down beyond all common sense) and a budget where you've no hope in making it profitable.

Leads to very bad blood (doers are ungrateful bastards, sales guys are the ignorant cocks effectively selling your soul at a cut price), and as a few have mentioned, it eventually buckles under itself as the bad but 'successful' sales guys move on before they're caught and the production team usually walks.

100% this.

We have salespeople who will get a job specced out with an appropriate number of days, then randomly cut that down and/or drop the day rate until it's down at a level that they think is cheap enough to win them the sale. They get commission based on a percentage of the job value, not it's profitability, and they get that commission when the client signs on the line NOT a year later when the job is running over budget and either breaking even or into loss. No mechanism for clawing back this commission on bad jobs either, and a company that generally seems unwilling to do anything about this sort of practice.

Posted 4 months ago #
mastiles_fanylion - Member

simon-g - in your situation the fault lies at the feet of the managers and decision makers, not the sales staff. If they are continuing to allow that sort of practice to go on then they will, at some point, fall on their face.

Posted 4 months ago #
mrmo - Member

I have lost count of the number of times i have had to sort out the mess left by salesmen, basically lying to get business. Small wonder most salesmen never stay in one job for long, all they do is get the business and then move on before the $hit hits the fan.

Posted 4 months ago #
wrecker - Member

They get commission based on a percentage of the job value, not it's profitability, and they get that commission when the client signs on the line NOT a year later when the job is running over budget and either breaking even or into loss. No mechanism for clawing back this commission on bad jobs either, and a company that generally seems unwilling to do anything about this sort of practice.

The delivery/operations team is then blamed for the job not being profitable! I know this story.

Posted 4 months ago #
TandemJeremy - Member

Read Dilbert.

Posted 4 months ago #
Kryton57 - Member

My situation is pretty similar to Simon G's and Wreckers. Oh, did I forget to mention I've had a 20% pay cut this year?

On the flip side, I've been reading a book about "personal character" which bangs on about my OP being an example of negativity and a focus on things i can't change, whereas, I be better focus on my job and the things I can influence which would lead to me being more positive and proactive, and generally happier with life.

Ho Hum. Perhaps I shouldn't involve myself in such botherspme thinking....*

*feels like surrendering though.

Posted 4 months ago #
Bushwacked - Member

mastiles_fanylion - Member

simon-g - in your situation the fault lies at the feet of the managers and decision makers, not the sales staff. If they are continuing to allow that sort of practice to go on then they will, at some point, fall on their face.

+1 we have some rules around pricing where we can decide on the best price, but anything over £50k and upward towards £1M a year has to be signed off by representatives from Product, Finance, IT, Compliance and Legal.

If companies are allowing this sort of practice then the management deserves to be shot.

We get rewarded for bringing profitable business in, some jobs are crap and have to be done but they should still be proftiable in the long run.

From reading this thread I am totally gob smacked how some companies are run.

Posted 4 months ago #