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1. highclimber - Member

   Hi guys and gals, I was unfortunately made redundant on friday last and I am in search of a bit of advice.

   I have been paid in lieu of my notice period which means my last day of employment with the company is Dec 25th!

   I started with the company on the 4th Jan so according to my contract they can just do exactly what they have and leave me high and dry but my question is - is it really that black and white as we are talking 10 days between the legal requirement for redundancy consultation and my last date of employment.

   could I raise an unfair dismissal claim based on this quite short period of time beween my contract termination date and the legal minimum service?

   the reason given for my dismissal is due to the current economic climate and lack of revenue.

   I am the only person in the company that this has happened to and I firmly believe that lack of revenue is not the real reason for my dismissal as I have an email from the Chairman to everyone saying how well the company was doing not 2 months ago!

   Posted 1 year ago #
2. richmars - Member

   So to hear your news. I was made redundent just before Christmas two years ago, so I know how it feels. Can't offer any advise on your question but just to say enjoy the break and good luck.

   Posted 1 year ago #
3. highclimber - Member

   thanks Rich i most certainly will enjoy the break!

   Posted 1 year ago #
4. WorldClassAccident - Member

   I thought it was 2 years before you got anything when made redundant. I was in a similar position a couple of years back. Jan 31st awarded World Wide Pre-sales person of the year. Feb 11th made redundant.

   Posted 1 year ago #
5. crazy-legs - Member

   They only have to consult if they're getting rid of more than a certain number of people. That was how they got round it when I got done over by the useless incompetent tossers in Mismanagement made redundant.

   You need to prove that they haven't played by the book which is what HR are there for - not to represent your interests but to make sure the company doesn't get wrongful dismissal cases landing at its door.

   If your contract says that within a year they can get rid for any reason then they've probably done just that. Last in, first out.

   CAB is your best bet if you suspect foul play and I'm sure TJ will be along in a minute to tell you to join a union...

   Posted 1 year ago #
6. cynic-al - Member

   http://www.iambeingfired.co.uk/lessthan.html

   Not my area of expertese (if I have one! LOL), but it seems to me the 1 year thing must be pretty strict - otherwise everyone sacked after slightly less than 1 year would be raising a claim.

   Anyway hope things get better.

   Posted 1 year ago #
7. TheLittlestHobo - Member

   Not got any legal knowledge for you but i had a situation about 3yrs ago where i had a rather heated debate with my manager at the time and was told to just **** off out of the office and dont bother coming back. I had refused to accept his way of speaking to me (Not what he was actually saying) and it had got to this. I walked out and called HR. Whilst i was waiting for their response i called my wife at the solicitors she works at and she put me through to an employment solicitor.

   He asked me if i had completed 1yr with the company. I said i was 2 days short of it. He made it very clear that as long as the manager hadnt told me i was sacked then to report back to my desk as soon as HR say to so that i can at least complete my 1 year. I think it could be 2 days/10 days or 100 days short and they can still let you go.

   Posted 1 year ago #
8. highclimber - Member

   If your contract says that within a year they can get rid for any reason then they've probably done just that. Last in, first out

   I wasn't the last one in! someone started 5 months ago in my office.

   just pissed off really as I suspect they got rid of me due to my performance recently which has been affected by personal issues

   Posted 1 year ago #
9. TheLittlestHobo - Member

   As much as it pains me to say it (I feel sorry for your news), isnt that the reason though. So that a company as well as an employee can protect themselves.

   I thought they could get rid of you for wearing the wrong colour of socks if they so wished within the first 12mths

   Posted 1 year ago #
10. uplink - Member

    It's unfortunate but it happens all the time as far as I can see

    Our lot get rid of people on their last day of probation [6 months] if it looks like they're going to be high maintenance or high cost - they just don't want the risk of hassle further down the line

    Unless you can claim they got rid of you on racial, religious or because you are of child bearing age - I think you've had it

    Hope something turns up for you soon

    Posted 1 year ago #
11. dooosuk - Member

    just pissed off really as I suspect they got rid of me due to my performance recently which has been affected by personal issues

    So you admit you've not been performing well enough at work?

    It may sound harsh but if the personal issues were that bad you should of looked to have had time off or at least talk to your employer about your situation.

    I hope things improve for you.

    Posted 1 year ago #
12. highclimber - Member

    So you admit you've not been performing well enough at work?

    I used my remaining holiday to have some personal time off for a break down in my relationship and I had a further week off for stress and anxiety (with a sick note).

    Posted 1 year ago #
13. Philby - Member

    Some sections on the CAB website might be helpful:

    http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/your_money/employment.htm

    Might be worth checking out with your local CAB whether your employer undertook a proper consultation process around your redundancy.

    Posted 1 year ago #
14. TheLittlestHobo - Member

    See now that last post cuts me to the core. On the one hand i want to be nice and say i feel for you. On the other hand i want to shout out, WHAT DO YOU EXPECT? If someone handed me a sick note for stress and anxiety they would jump to the head of any P45 queue. Its not PC but then i dont think PC has done this country any favours

    Posted 1 year ago #
15. crazy-legs - Member

    Our lot get rid of people on their last day of probation [6 months] if it looks like they're going to be high maintenance or high cost - they just don't want the risk of hassle further down the line

    The place I used to work at did that too. Use people for 6 months on the low-paid low skills jobs, ditch them, get more school leavers in, repeat. Cheaper for them in the long run: no pension, no benefits.

    highclimber: you should have the right to an appeal. Seek advice from CAB, inform the company that you want to use the appeals procedure. Keep a note of everything, every conversation, every letter sent/received. If you've got letters praising your performance in the past, use that as leverage as well. You should also have the right to a witness in the appeals procedure, is there a trusted colleague you can ask to be in there with you? There are limits to what they can do (eg they can't answer questions on your behalf but they can ask questions) but they're useful for moral support as much as anything.

    CAB is your best bet, honestly. Oh and start getting the ball rolling for benefits like Jobseekers Allowance as well.

    Best of luck.

    Posted 1 year ago #
16. TheLittlestHobo - Member

    But isnt it the case of appeal against what? The fact that they have let him go or the fact that he doesnt agree with it?

    Surely as long as they havent said they dont like his colour, sex, dissability or origin then he hasnt got anything to complain about. Or are employers accountable even if they just decide someone isnt right for the job within the 12mths?

    BTW this isnt a go at you highclimber. Sometimes asking the questions will get proper answers rather than assumptions

    Posted 1 year ago #
17. pstokes99 - Member

    If you have been employed for less than a year (which you have) and have been provided you with your contractual notice (or paid in leiu) then your dismissal is likely to be lawful - they need not even provide you with a reason.

    In such circumstances the only potential for pursuing the matter further would be if it could be argued that you have been unlawfully discrimnated against (discrim claims don't have a minumum service requirement unlike, for example, unfair dismissal [where you have to be employed for a year]).

    Really sorry to hear you news - and hope you find something else soon.

    Posted 1 year ago #
18. highclimber - Member

    I am not asking for sympathy, just advice. I didn't ask for any favours but in the same breath I didn't get much support when I told my employer about my situation and asked to take the remainder of my holidays.

    Posted 1 year ago #
19. uplink - Member

    Have a look at the 2nd last paragraph in this highclimber

    http://www.backuphr.com/human-resources-modload-news-article-105.htm

    Posted 1 year ago #
20. jond - Member

    I guess strictly speaking they haven't made you 'redundant', they've simply terminated your contract before the 12 month qualifying period, which they may, as uplink's written (discriminatory issues aside).

    After the 12 month period they would have the option of making your position redundant (note that it's the 'job', not you, that's made redundant) - which wouldn't be significantly better for you anyway since you'd get statutory redundancy plus notice, and is a bit more of a pain for them in the case where they want to get shot of you but recruit for the post.
    The other alternative they would have had to get rid of you after the 12month point would be to terminate your contract regardless - ie unfairly - in which case they'd negotiate a settlement to not sue them for unfair dismissal (which is what it'd be).
    Note that suing for unfair dismissal - other than discriminatory - will only get you an award to the period from being chcuked out of that job, to starting the next one.

    They could also have taken out capability procedings against you to resolve performance issues, that's a nuisance on both sides and sometimes just prolongs the inevitable (tho' that's also used by some employers to get rid of people they simply don't like to avoid paying them off - typically overload them with work and see if they crumble/leave).

    TBH - they may even think they're doing you a favour by using the word 'redundancy' - what looks better on a cv - redundancy or a simply that your contract was terminated ?

    Sorry to hear it, good luck on the job hunt.

    >Have a look at the 2nd last paragraph in this highclimber

    Interesting...not sure it materially changes the termination tho', but it's worth further enquiry.

    One point about being signed off ill/for stress - if they terminated your contract as a result/while you were off ill they might be on sticky wicket, but presumably you're back at work (as in signed off for a limited period) and that no longer applies.

    It might be worth thinking about what's your desired outcome - if it's compensation then you may be flogging a dead horse wrt the effort involved, if it really is to retain your job then be prepared for a) a bit of a fight and b) keeping your nose squeaky clean if you somehow manage to win (fight?) them round.

    Posted 1 year ago #
21. TheLittlestHobo - Member

    Nice info there Jond

    Posted 1 year ago #
22. Sancho - Member

    Having been made redundant in the past I can sympathise with your position, however, having made people redundant, I can also say that the company can do what they like and if you have a grievance and want to claim unfair dismissal then good luck, if you won a claim like that, I doubt what you would get would be worth the effort and it could take ages to decide and cost you money too,
    from experience its best to move on quickly and get something else sorted asap.

    Posted 1 year ago #
23. jj55 - Member

    Phone ACAS

    Posted 1 year ago #
24. nickf - Member

    Having done this to people in the past, then unless there's something other than the disclosed facts, I'm afraid the legal position is not with you. Crazylegs point is valid only if you've been discriminated against in your role.

    A 'real' reason is not needed; the fact that the chairman stated 2 months ago that things were going well doesn't really make any difference, as any company will be looking to trim cost where it can, and if you've not been making the grade (for whatever reason) they'll be brutal about it.

    As I mentioned, I've had to do this myself. It's no fun, but from the company perspective you have to think of the shareholders and ensure that any people you keep on are going to really add value. Getting rid after the 12 month period brings complexity that no-one needs.

    On a personal note, it's a bummer, and I really hope it works out for you. What field are you in, and what location?

    Posted 1 year ago #
25. TandemJeremy - Member

    Less than a years service no recourse to a tribunal ( unless its discrimination in a fairly narrow sense)

    Not much you can do I doubt.

    Posted 1 year ago #
26. b r - Member

    Don't waste any time with any kind of action, just look for another job.

    I've been laid off six times, kinda get use to it in the end...

    Posted 1 year ago #
27. buzz-lightyear - Member

    "If someone handed me a sick note for stress and anxiety they would jump to the head of any P45 queue."

    To me that sounds completely unreasonable. Perhaps this management attitude is what causes staff "stress and anxiety"?

    Posted 1 year ago #
28. GJP - Member

    See now that last post cuts me to the core. On the one hand i want to be nice and say i feel for you. On the other hand i want to shout out, WHAT DO YOU EXPECT? If someone handed me a sick note for stress and anxiety they would jump to the head of any P45 queue. Its not PC but then i dont think PC has done this country any favours

    I would expect to be treated fairly and no differently from someone who has taken time off sick with a cancer diagnosis. Anything else is blatant discrimination.

    Posted 1 year ago #
29. highclimber - Member

    Thanks folks,

    thanks for the link, uplink.

    good info Jond, thanks.

    I was a GIS junior consultant

    I am leaning towards the fact that I would almost certainly be wasting my time pursuing a claim but in the same breath I think they only got rid of me because of my personal issues and they weren't sure how I was coping or how long it would take to get over them(they didn't bother to ask how i was doing - no sympathy) and they knew that it would have been a lot harder for them to get rid of me had they left it any later!

    Posted 1 year ago #
30. robdob - Member

    If someone handed me a sick note for stress and anxiety they would jump to the head of any P45 queue."

    I would agree. If it was my first year in the job I would move heaven and earth to make sure I did the best I could, worked hard and worked through sickness if I could. That's the sort of person I would look for if I was an employer. Work isn't a right, someone is paying you money to do work for them so if you're not up to it you're going to stand out.

    Stress and anxiety? Used as an excuse by loads of people who can't get their job done or can't be bothered to make the effort. Not all cases though.

    Unfortunately in the real world you can be dismissed for many valid reasons (and no mention of the real reason) perfectly legally. I'm afraid you haven't been discriminated against, you just haven't been as good as the other people and you stand out as being a potential liability. Sorry, this sucks but it happens.

    Posted 1 year ago #
31. highclimber - Member

    Stress and anxiety? Used as an excuse by loads of people who can't get their job done or can't be bothered to make the effort. Not all cases though.

    if you knew anything about HR then you wouldn't be saying this. FYI stress is a workplace risk that has to be managed by your employer just as much as a trip hazard or any other workplace risk to your health.

    The time off i took allowed me time to deal with my issues without the additional stress of working targets and deadlines. Im sorry you dont agree with people taking time off for genuine reasons but the employer has a duty of care to their staff to prevent undue stress (i'm not saying work should be devoid of stress, just that undue pressure while a person is dealing with a personal problem is not managing stress, just compounding it).

    I had a genuine problem and work was not helping matters and I felt I was getting more depressed so I was proactive about it in not wanting it to get any worse.

    So please, don't come the whole 'he's just using the sick note to get time off BS' as I had genuine reason to see the doctor and I am mearly seeking advice on the fact that its a bit strange that I should have a letter on my desk not two weeks after returning!

    Posted 1 year ago #
32. poly - Member

    A few years back we had an employee who was under-performing. He'd been with us about 10.5 months, and I called our lawyer to check we were within our rights to just terminate his contract with 1 months notice as stated in the contract, which was my understanding / expectation.

    The legal advice was not clear cut. Although in theory you accrue no rights prior to 12 months, the lawyer was very concerned that by intentionally terminating a contract to prevent the 12 month rule coming into effect we were at risk of getting into grey area territory. He also said that the rights apply after 51 weeks not 365 days as everyone would assume. Basically our advice was if we were going to act we needed to act right then - and not delay for another week (regrettably we didn't do anything and stuck with him for 2 more years!).

    You could talk to a laywer, but what solution are you looking for? Reinstatement? - would you want to work there? Compensation - a few pounds in several months time less the legal costs? The "knowing you were right (if you were)"? - and any future employer who hears about it running a mile.

    Let them call it redundancy - and get another job.

    Posted 1 year ago #
33. poly - Member

    I am leaning towards the fact that I would almost certainly be wasting my time pursuing a claim but in the same breath I think they only got rid of me because of my personal issues and they weren't sure how I was coping or how long it would take to get over them(they didn't bother to ask how i was doing - no sympathy) and they knew that it would have been a lot harder for them to get rid of me had they left it any later!

    IF your personal issues are considered to be a mental health issue then you have probably been discriminated against and would have a potential claim.

    Now why do you think your employer owes you sympathy?

    Posted 1 year ago #

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