I like Grigris, makes paying out very very easy. And I suspect this is why they get used for newbies.
Prussic loop - fiddly. Maybe one of those petzl thingies that you can use for abbing.. but you need to keep one hand on.. perhaps a self-belay device attached on the climber side of your ATC would work nicely in the style of the prussic loop... hmm...
most climbers seem to think that there's no issue...
That's a little disingenuous. I don't believe that most climbers think there's "no" issue, so much as thinking that it's a fairly small issue in the grand scheme of things. We're back to acceptable risk again. Eg, it'd be safer but I wouldn't wear a full-face helmet and body armour for a cycle down the canal towpath.
I take your point, and anything that can improve safety without badly compromising everything else is of course a good idea. I'm just not convinced that it's a particularly common issue.
Prussic loop - fiddly.
I mentioned this a while back as a suggestion. Not sure how well it'd work though because yes, it's fiddly, and faced with a free-running rope I wonder if the cord would melt before it grabbed?
For me it was all about travelling light. I preferred using a loop of 6mm/7mm cord as my failsafe for ab'ing than have to carry another device with me. Much more difficult to pay out, but then my reasoning is that the easier it pays out the harder it is to stop 
I don't climb much now, but I don't remember thinking stich plates (however you spell it) were a particular pain to use, but then I served my apprenticeship with my Dad who had vast amounts of knowledge, experience and skill when it came to climbing. Some of it rubbed off on me
I for one don't and never will want anything more complicated than an ATC.
Even simple things like 'biners (some times not even screw gates) stop working properly in alpine and winter environments.
The best failsafe mechanism: don't fall off.
As far as abseiling goes, a prussic is very reliable, although I often don't bother with that unless there is noticeable rock/ice fall. Just getting the hell out of there fast is usually a big safety factor.
I wonder if the cord would melt before it grabbed?
Pretty much as soon as you let go of the prussik with your main belaying hand, the system locks up. Maybe it doesn't work as well with the newer belay plates but with a stich plate it was very effective. Of course you need to make sure you put enough loops in the prussik and it does take a bit of skill, so not for newbies. Cheap, light and effective tho'
it really makes sod all difference what people use as long as:
-Its a recognised device
-The belayer knows how to use it correctly and has experience with it
-The climber is happy being belayed by that belayer on it.
Personally i always use a grigri for sport climbing or at the wall as i find it a bit more 'relaxing' to use for a full day of climbing, and its much better than a standard plate type device if the climber is working a route and having lots of rests.
For trad i'll use an ATC XP as i tend to climb on skinny doubles.
Theres always going to be climbers arguing the pro's and cons of each device, but as long as both partners are happy with the set up theres no point worrying / arguing about it.
Same goes for abbing, ive abbed on grigris and ATC's, as long as you have tried the device in a controlled situation and know how it feeds through on the ab theres no problem. I nearly always back up with a prussic though as it means you can take you hands off to sort out rope tangles, and it makes things feel less intimidating on free hanging abs (well to me it does)
Typical STW, someone asks about one thing and everyone else goes off on a points scoring tangent about something else!
All thats missing is a few links to wikipedia and some photos of someone on a chossy trad route somewhere.
^^
Yeah i expect the OP has probably long gone from this thread, probably out doing something much more constructive like riding or actually climbing 
Typical STW, someone asks about one thing and everyone else goes off on a points scoring tangent about something else!
Typical STW, someone asks about one thing, an interesting discussion develops, and then someone comes along and accuses everyone else of 'point scoring'. (-:
(Incidentally, "ianv" on a climbing thread? 
*Does the "we're not worthy" scene from Wayne's World*)
The best failsafe mechanism: don't fall off.
Not a failsafe mechanism is it?
Typical STW, someone asks about one thing and everyone else goes off on a points scoring tangent about something else!
I didn't think we were points scoring? I think it's an issue, that's all. I've seen lots of bad belaying in my time.
probably out doing something much more constructive like riding or actually climbing
Which is where we'd all rather be I imagine 
ok so I went for a climb and it was ace! massive rock face and lots of really nice bolted routes however I do have a couple of questions
1- at the top of the bolted route is a really thick wire or a double bolt with a chain and coming off these is what looks like a caribina but not bling just chain shaped but you can clip your rope into it like a bina.. I did check it out and it looks silky smooth - is this still advisable not to use and to go off another piece of equipment off this and leave it up there? - my mates were using that but they dont know loads
2- the way nature is means the rocks are all over the shop and I noticed on the way down there is usually a fair amount of pressure or rubbing with the ropes over pertruding rock... surely this is bad as it will eat away at the outer coating but I cant think of any other possible way that you'd get around this problem without a, leaving expensive gear or b, being risky... is this to be expected and it just means I will need new ropes quicker?
Alexx - the lower-offs at the top of sport climbs are there so that you don't have to leave gear behind when you lower off (hence the name). It's worth giving them a good visual inspection, but as long as they're not manky & rusty or have a big groove worn in them then they're fine to use. If you're going to be using those anchors for a top-rope it's best to use a couple of opposed quickdraws (gates facing opposite way so as to make it difficult to unclip) or a screwgate. This is more secure than the existing gear (normally) but also reduces the wear on that gear.
Can't help you with 1) as the wrong advice might kill you. Though I'd suggest you find out before you climb there again. It sounds like what you'd find at the top of a sport climb and if so is designed to take a rope. But seriously man, ask someone.
With 2) that's what slings are for. Theoretically, a worn sheath (ho ho) isn't a structural problem, as the rope's strength is in the core. That said, a damaged sheath might be a symptom of further damage. It also leaves the core exposed and can snag and catch. Personally, I'd either cut or bin a rope damaged in that way.
Re point 2) ropes are disposable items, and different conditions cause them to wear faster. I once binned a rope because it was in the same rucksack as a gas lantern where the glass had broken and left bits of glass everywhere. Not worth the risk.
Incidentally, here's one I photographed earlier.
If you have doubts about the gear that's there to lower off on, clip it and then try to pull it out before you lower off. Even in the highly unlikely event it fails the next runner down will stop you. If you then lower off gently you've got nothing to worry about.
As for rope wear. If you're using a double rope single then wear will soon make it unsafe. However, rope designed for single use will take enormous amounts of abuse, wear and low factor falls, and still survive a factor two fall.
at the top of the bolted route is a really thick wire or a double bolt with a chain and coming off these is what looks like a caribina but not bling just chain shaped
I couldn't remember the term earlier but it's just come back to me. Are you talking about a Maillon?
Even in the highly unlikely event it fails the next runner down will stop youOnly if you haven't started stripping your gear. Otherwise you're likely to hit the deck.
Q1 It's basically a fixed in place krab specically designed for lowering off (moulinette fixe en francais)
saves untying and retying - inspect and use - make sure it shuts properly and is connected to both bolts by the chain
if you intend to top rope the route afterwards as a warm down or for practise don't unclip all the quickdraws - especially the top one as this will back up if rope unclips from bolt station - can happen if rope crosses the usually large gate if you swing off
Q2 rope rub will vary from route to route and sports climbing can be aggressive on rope wear to the sheath - one thing to do is check for "slippage" ie the core disappearing up the sheath - that certainly tells you it is excessive and need retiring
buy or beg a copy of http://www.amazon.com/Sport-Climbing-Adrian-Berry/dp/1873341865/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1308744560&sr=1-1
probably has a french/english phrase section as well
edit a maillon is a small steel oval and has a tighened up (usually glued) screw gate and you have to untie to thread it
1. French cliffs are equipped by the local council (the pay someone to do it and keep an eye on the gear) the fixed gear therefore pretty good and you don't need to worry that it will fail.
2. Unless you are climbing overhangs you will always catch the rope on edges etc. again don't worry. It is the internal cords that are the big deal, the outer only stops them getting damaged.
Sport climbing is pretty safe, don't get freaked by all the talk of danger, death and destruction and have fun.
A lot of French routes just have two bolts and a chain, Cougar. You have to untie to thread the chain. Clip into one of the bolts with a quick draw direct to the harness. Pull up some rope, tie a knot and clip it to your belt (so you can't drop it). Untie, thread the chain and retie. Make a mistake and you can have a Llyn Hill style descent.
A "maillon" is just a link in a chain. Some routes have a "maillon rapide" which is a link with bolt closure. This hangs at the lowest point in the chain loop and allows the rope to slide more easily than through just a cahin.
Edit: without wishing to doubt people's common sense you always thread through a link in the chain rather than around the chain. If you thread around the chain then if either bolt fails you're off. Thread the chain and both bolts would have to fail.
Pull up some rope, tie a knot and clip it to your belt (so you can't drop it). Untie, thread the chain and retie.
Another way - clip into the belay but don't untie. Push a loop of rope through the chain link / anchor ring and tie a figure-8 knot in it, then clip that into your belay loop with a screwgate.
*Now* you can untie your original main knot, pull the tail through the ring and lower off.
This way you're always tied in and never actually detached from the rope.
Those wacky French. (-: Cheers for the info, good to know.
You're still tied in by the rope clipped to the belt in my method and there's no way you'd push a doubled rope through some chains.
Always nice to have alternatives then you can use whatever is most appropriate for the conditions.
Can you not clip into the chain?
You're still tied in by the rope clipped to the belt in my method
If you actually clip it back to the waistbelt (or belay loop) then yes, but you very often see people just clipping it onto a spare QD on a gear loop.
whatever is most appropriate for the conditions.
Absolutely.
Can you not clip into the chain?
Clip what into the chain?
A quickdraw?
Btw I've got no idea what you lot are talking about, never having climbed in France
It was Lynn Hill that failed to tie back in properly. I turned her into a Welsh lake up there.
no idea what you lot are talking about, never having climbed in France
We have sport routes over here too... in fact if it manages to stay dry this evening I'll be down the road at Cheddar climbing some of them
All we're talking about is, if there's no fixed crab / maillon / pigs-tail to clip the rope into at the anchor, then to get down without leaving your own gear behind you'll have to thread the rope directly through the chain/rings/hangers.
Which means you'll have to untie whilst at the anchor. Which means you need a plan for not dropping the rope and being left hanging up there on your own being pecked by hungry ravens (or something).
Cougar - what's the storey behind that worn carabiner? I'm guessing it's steel as opposed to alloy?
Which means you'll have to untie whilst at the anchor.
What they should do is put the bolts really far apart, and you could then just climb through the chain - problem solved
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