The best failsafe mechanism: don’t fall off.

Not a failsafe mechanism is it?

Typical STW, someone asks about one thing and everyone else goes off on a points scoring tangent about something else!

I didn’t think we were points scoring? I think it’s an issue, that’s all. I’ve seen lots of bad belaying in my time.

probably out doing something much more constructive like riding or actually climbing

Which is where we’d all rather be I imagine 🙂

ok so I went for a climb and it was ace! massive rock face and lots of really nice bolted routes however I do have a couple of questions

1- at the top of the bolted route is a really thick wire or a double bolt with a chain and coming off these is what looks like a caribina but not bling just chain shaped but you can clip your rope into it like a bina.. I did check it out and it looks silky smooth – is this still advisable not to use and to go off another piece of equipment off this and leave it up there? – my mates were using that but they dont know loads

2- the way nature is means the rocks are all over the shop and I noticed on the way down there is usually a fair amount of pressure or rubbing with the ropes over pertruding rock… surely this is bad as it will eat away at the outer coating but I cant think of any other possible way that you’d get around this problem without a, leaving expensive gear or b, being risky… is this to be expected and it just means I will need new ropes quicker?

I’d far rather a novice belay me on a grigri than simply explaining them how a traditional device works and hoping they do it right.

Errr.. 😀

Alexx – the lower-offs at the top of sport climbs are there so that you don’t have to leave gear behind when you lower off (hence the name). It’s worth giving them a good visual inspection, but as long as they’re not manky & rusty or have a big groove worn in them then they’re fine to use. If you’re going to be using those anchors for a top-rope it’s best to use a couple of opposed quickdraws (gates facing opposite way so as to make it difficult to unclip) or a screwgate. This is more secure than the existing gear (normally) but also reduces the wear on that gear.

Can’t help you with 1) as the wrong advice might kill you. Though I’d suggest you find out before you climb there again. It sounds like what you’d find at the top of a sport climb and if so is designed to take a rope. But seriously man, ask someone.

With 2) that’s what slings are for. Theoretically, a worn sheath (ho ho) isn’t a structural problem, as the rope’s strength is in the core. That said, a damaged sheath might be a symptom of further damage. It also leaves the core exposed and can snag and catch. Personally, I’d either cut or bin a rope damaged in that way.

…or have a big groove worn in them

… which would cause things like this.

Re point 2) ropes are disposable items, and different conditions cause them to wear faster. I once binned a rope because it was in the same rucksack as a gas lantern where the glass had broken and left bits of glass everywhere. Not worth the risk.

Incidentally, here’s one I photographed earlier.

If you have doubts about the gear that’s there to lower off on, clip it and then try to pull it out before you lower off. Even in the highly unlikely event it fails the next runner down will stop you. If you then lower off gently you’ve got nothing to worry about.

As for rope wear. If you’re using a double rope single then wear will soon make it unsafe. However, rope designed for single use will take enormous amounts of abuse, wear and low factor falls, and still survive a factor two fall.

at the top of the bolted route is a really thick wire or a double bolt with a chain and coming off these is what looks like a caribina but not bling just chain shaped

I couldn’t remember the term earlier but it’s just come back to me. Are you talking about a Maillon?

Even in the highly unlikely event it fails the next runner down will stop you

Only if you haven’t started stripping your gear. Otherwise you’re likely to hit the deck.

Q1 It’s basically a fixed in place krab specically designed for lowering off (moulinette fixe en francais)
saves untying and retying – inspect and use – make sure it shuts properly and is connected to both bolts by the chain

if you intend to top rope the route afterwards as a warm down or for practise don’t unclip all the quickdraws – especially the top one as this will back up if rope unclips from bolt station – can happen if rope crosses the usually large gate if you swing off

Q2 rope rub will vary from route to route and sports climbing can be aggressive on rope wear to the sheath – one thing to do is check for “slippage” ie the core disappearing up the sheath – that certainly tells you it is excessive and need retiring

buy or beg a copy of http://www.amazon.com/Sport-Climbing-Adrian-Berry/dp/1873341865/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1308744560&sr=1-1

probably has a french/english phrase section as well

edit a maillon is a small steel oval and has a tighened up (usually glued) screw gate and you have to untie to thread it

1. French cliffs are equipped by the local council (the pay someone to do it and keep an eye on the gear) the fixed gear therefore pretty good and you don’t need to worry that it will fail.

2. Unless you are climbing overhangs you will always catch the rope on edges etc. again don’t worry. It is the internal cords that are the big deal, the outer only stops them getting damaged.

Sport climbing is pretty safe, don’t get freaked by all the talk of danger, death and destruction and have fun.

A lot of French routes just have two bolts and a chain, Cougar. You have to untie to thread the chain. Clip into one of the bolts with a quick draw direct to the harness. Pull up some rope, tie a knot and clip it to your belt (so you can’t drop it). Untie, thread the chain and retie. Make a mistake and you can have a Llyn Hill style descent.

A “maillon” is just a link in a chain. Some routes have a “maillon rapide” which is a link with bolt closure. This hangs at the lowest point in the chain loop and allows the rope to slide more easily than through just a cahin.

Edit: without wishing to doubt people’s common sense you always thread through a link in the chain rather than around the chain. If you thread around the chain then if either bolt fails you’re off. Thread the chain and both bolts would have to fail.

Pull up some rope, tie a knot and clip it to your belt (so you can’t drop it). Untie, thread the chain and retie.

Another way – clip into the belay but don’t untie. Push a loop of rope through the chain link / anchor ring and tie a figure-8 knot in it, then clip that into your belay loop with a screwgate.

*Now* you can untie your original main knot, pull the tail through the ring and lower off.

This way you’re always tied in and never actually detached from the rope.

Those wacky French. (-: Cheers for the info, good to know.

You’re still tied in by the rope clipped to the belt in my method and there’s no way you’d push a doubled rope through some chains.

Always nice to have alternatives then you can use whatever is most appropriate for the conditions.

Can you not clip into the chain?

You’re still tied in by the rope clipped to the belt in my method

If you actually clip it back to the waistbelt (or belay loop) then yes, but you very often see people just clipping it onto a spare QD on a gear loop.

whatever is most appropriate for the conditions.

Absolutely.

Can you not clip into the chain?

Clip what into the chain?

A quickdraw?

Btw I’ve got no idea what you lot are talking about, never having climbed in France 🙂

It was Lynn Hill that failed to tie back in properly. I turned her into a Welsh lake up there.

no idea what you lot are talking about, never having climbed in France

We have sport routes over here too… in fact if it manages to stay dry this evening I’ll be down the road at Cheddar climbing some of them 🙂

All we’re talking about is, if there’s no fixed crab / maillon / pigs-tail to clip the rope into at the anchor, then to get down without leaving your own gear behind you’ll have to thread the rope directly through the chain/rings/hangers.

Which means you’ll have to untie whilst at the anchor. Which means you need a plan for not dropping the rope and being left hanging up there on your own being pecked by hungry ravens 😯 (or something).

Cougar – what’s the storey behind that worn carabiner? I’m guessing it’s steel as opposed to alloy?

Which means you’ll have to untie whilst at the anchor.

What they should do is put the bolts really far apart, and you could then just climb through the chain – problem solved 🙂

antigee is bang on the money, thanks mate appreciated! I’ll order a copy of that book now!

what else can I do to reduce rope wear when the face sticks out from below the krab as it does really make me feel uneasy knowing its rubbing or should I man up and just keep checking my rope?

Also does anyone have any rope suggestions and quickdraw sling lengths that are handy as I noticed my mates have about 10 but they are all the same length.

I’m looking for equipment advice on what I should be taking up a 30 meter high lead route – ie do I need a separate sling just in case of emergencies on a route like I mentioned or just 10 or so quickdraws and my chalk bag?

thanks again everyone always a useful read

alexxx – lots of good advice already given, but I’ll give me tuppence…

You’ll never stop the rope rubbing on something somewhere (unless you always climb overhanging routes!) – like you say, regular checks, and try not to fall on it 😉

I’d recommend getting a 70m rope for outdoor use – it gives you more options, especially if you end up doing multi-pitch routes. Beal Booster is the one I went for (decent value / weight), but you’ll have to decide if you need one with any extra weather treatments and stuff.

As for QDs, get at least 10, 15 is better. I got QDs with different colour clips on either end, which makes it a bit easier for me to always use ‘red for rope, (silver for bolt)’. 10cm sling-length on QDs is normal, but a few longer ones to reduce zig-zagging of the rope line is good – you’d be surprised how much rope drag this adds – but IME most sport routes are bolted fairly straight.

Slings & spare karabiners are always useful – if you do need to bail out the route early, you’ll need to use a bolt + bin ‘biner as a lower-off and go through the routine mentioned above. And they’re totally necessary on multi-pitch, and I like to take a belay device with a direct attachment point like the petzl reverso.

Have fun!

I don’t think there is much you can do about the rope rubbing on the rock when you’re rappelling from a fixed point, you’ve climbed up a sports route to the top, threaded your rope thru the “what looks like a caribina but not bling just chain shaped but you can clip your rope into it like a bina.” and lowered/rappelled off. Bearing in mind, everyone else has probably done the exact same thing for maybe 10-20 years. Having a smooth rappel style rather than jerky might make you feel happier. All I can add, as you go up the grades, the rock will get more vertical (or even overhanging), so this issue will disappear.

do I need a separate sling just in case of emergencies on a route like I mentioned

you’re going to have to explain yourself a bit more here.
you certainly should have a small sling with two screwgates (cowstail), to secure yourself at the top incase you have to untie the rope and thread it thru the “what looks like a caribina but not bling just chain shaped but you can clip your rope into it like a bina.” often you can’t just clip the rope. I’ve never been able to just clip into a maillon.

thanks matt also helpful, any reason not to just get 15mm quickdraws over 10s?

banana – I just meant is it worth carrying anything that could potentially get my out of a tricky situation like a unofficial must have.

thanks matt also helpful, any reason not to just get 15cm quickdraws over 10s?

For sport climbing, not really any great benefit in getting longer QDs to offset the extra weight and expense. If you’re doing trad, then longer webbing on the QDs can be benefitial as that zig-zagging rope drag can pull protection out. 😯

I’ve only carried a cowstail (one screwgate attached to harness, attached to short sling, attached to 2nd screwgate) and prusik loops, which can be used in all manner of ways to climb, rappel and secure yourself on the rope.

On a slab followed by an overhang you’ll be glad of longer quickkdraws and even a short sling to use on the last bolt before you start the overhang. If you use a short one the rope drag around the overhang will make upward progress very hard work.

this might be useful if you are looking for places to climb around morzine:

http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,18053.msg320819/topicseen.html#new

Cougar – what’s the storey behind that worn carabiner?

Good, isn’t it.

It’s not quite as insidious as it looks; it’s on the Y cable on the harness they gave me at Go Ape. It’s worn from sliding along high tensile steel cables all day. I figured it was probably safe as it’s not likely to cut through a rope. Probably.

do I need a separate sling just in case of emergencies

It’s always worth carrying a couple of slings and a length of Prusik cord. It’s not like they’re heavy.