Moral Dilemma - is it stealing/fraud

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Moral Dilemma - is it stealing/fraud

47 posts & 32 voices | Started 2 years ago by steve-g | Latest reply from buzz-lightyear

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steve-g - Member

Hi All

Years ago I broke up with a girl I was seeing and was left with all of our collective debts to pay, maybe 2 grands worth. On Saturday I got a letter from the council tax people saying that due to a revaluation they owed me 250 quid on the council tax from the time I lived with the aforementioned girl 7 years ago. I have phoned the council tax office and they asked whether I was still with the girl and i lied that I was and now I need to send in a letter signed by us both agreeing that they can pay the rebate to me.

Do I be honest, or do I send in my faked signature letter?

Regards
Steve

Posted 2 years ago #
anagallis_arvensis - Member

it is stealing yes

Posted 2 years ago #
BigDummy - Member

Is your question:

1- "is it fraudulent to fake someone's signature on a document so that you get money?"

2- "would you lot also fake signatures to get money?"

Posted 2 years ago #
kimbers - Member

do it man then just track her down and give her all of the 75 quid the council agreed to refund her

Posted 2 years ago #
sofatester - Member

Karma will catch you for things like this.

Posted 2 years ago #
MrNutt - Member

nah its the council, they are "the man", its liberation comrade! down with the empire!!

Posted 2 years ago #
steve-g - Member

BD - My point is that she owes me money, she has disappeared to avoid paying me the money she owes me, should I treat this as karma paying me back some. I couldn't get hold of her to let her know about it even if I wanted to

Posted 2 years ago #
nimrod2410 - Member

Fake the signature, trouser the money, it's only 250, and it's your rightful money. Not as if you are 'stealing' from the council.

Posted 2 years ago #
Trimix - Member

You would have to check that the person(s) dealing with this at the council do not read this Forum

Posted 2 years ago #
grumm - Member

Not really stealing, more just fraud.

Not morally wrong though imo.

Posted 2 years ago #
Trimix - Member

Anyway, of cause its stealing / fraud. Your really asking if your likely to get caught. Try it and come back and tell us. We would be interested to find out.

Posted 2 years ago #
nimrod2410 - Member

You wont get caught........
Just sign the letter and enjoy the money.

Posted 2 years ago #
Junkyard - Member

illegal yes
justice yes
risky yes

Do you want to risk a criminal conviction for fraud for £125?
Can you prove you paid it all and explain the situation and see if you get it all?

Posted 2 years ago #
footstomper - Member

Just sign the paper and take the Money. A) She left you with lots of debt so you do not owe her anything. B)Its your money because you over paid the Council.
Its not like you are one of them Lazy fooks who feign injury and get that amount + more each week!

Posted 2 years ago #
nimrod2410 - Member

Don't panic the bloke Junkyard.

Posted 2 years ago #
nickc - Member

Go for it. I would (probably)

Posted 2 years ago #
backhander - Member

Look at it this way; That would pay for a decent set of wheels.
Next?

Posted 2 years ago #
freeform5spot - Blocked

fake it, no hesitation.

Posted 2 years ago #
Steve-Austin - Member

collecting it would be fraud. you could end up in a room with a new friend who desperately wants to play hide the sausage

Posted 2 years ago #
hels - Member

They had no hesitation in hitting you up for joint debts and will get who they can !!

Why should you then have to share the refund, you paid it in the first place. Legally yes it's fraud but I wouldn't lose sleep over it. It's not like it has to be notarised, she is hardly going to dob you in is she ?

Morally good ground here.

Posted 2 years ago #
konabunny - Member

I don't think you've got a moral dilemma there 'cos you've already decided it's moral. You're not ripping off the cooncil either.

I think you have a strategic/prospects of getting found out problem!

Posted 2 years ago #
vinnyeh - Member

did you make things more difficult by saying that you still lived with the girl?

Posted 2 years ago #
Kato - Member

Sure is, that's section 2 Fraud my man

Posted 2 years ago #
sv - Member

Sign and pocket your cash.

Posted 2 years ago #
skidartist - Member

You were 'Jointly and severally' liable to pay the tax (i.e either of you could have been persued to pay the whole debt), wouldn't you be also jointly and severally due the refund also? The refund is surely due to either or both of you. You'd need to research it further and find out.

difficulty is you've already lied, perhaps you would be perfectly correct to claim the full refund yourself.

find out whether you alone can claim the refund, if you can, see if you can backtrack. At the moment you've only said she lives there and been sent the paperwork accordingly. Thats just a mistake, but maybe its a mistake they made, it was a bad line and you said 'no' but they heard 'yes'.

You knowingly signing the paperwork turns the mistake into fraud though.

If you can legitimately claim the refund yourself (because although two of you were named on the bill perhaps only one of you might have been funding the payments) call them and tell them you've been sent the wrong form to fill in 'by mistake'.

Posted 2 years ago #
ransos - Member

Yes it is fraud, but due to your circumstances, it's probably not immoral. It depends on whether you think it's worth the risk.

Posted 2 years ago #
Junkyard - Member

I am not trying to scare the OP as skidartist puts in more detail/eloquently. I would not risk a fraud conviction for £125. I think morally he deserves the money , but the risk is not worth it, IMHO, for so little gain.

Posted 2 years ago #
ebygomm - Member

How was your council tax paid? My refund came as a cheque made out to both of us (we're not married so why they would assume we have a joint account i don't know, could have just been friends). I can prove that council tax was paid out of my account by direct debit and so refund cheque should be in my name only

Posted 2 years ago #
skidartist - Member

skidartist puts in more detail/eloquently.

yeah sorry about that - my house was over run by kids this weekend, in the calm after the storm its such a pleasure to be able to reach the end of a sentence and remember how it started.

Posted 2 years ago #
steve-g - Member

The council tax was always paid cash as we lived near the civic centre.

There are no forms, they just said to write a letter saying to write the cheque to just me, both sign it and send it in.

The girl no longer lives in the area, they would have a difficult time proving that she didn't sign the letter, im hoping the letter is just filed away somewhere so the council can tick a box that needs ticking and thats all

Posted 2 years ago #
kimbers - Member

do it

will be fine

Posted 2 years ago #
Junkyard - Member

yes it will be fine but what kind

Posted 2 years ago #
skidartist - Member

Write the letter, authorising them to send the cheque to you. Sign it. Yourself. As yourself. And thats it. There's no need to involve the ex's name or signature. Just you, in relation to your address and your council tax ref number. Repayment isn't contingent on her being there still, or signing anything is it. They just need to be sure that you OR her are receiving the refund and not someone else. The council has money that isn't due to them, they need to hand it back. They hand it back to you. Job done.

If the ex was to feel she had a claim on in it, then thats an issue for you and her. Its nothing for the council to involve themselves in. But if she was to subsiquently claim the same refund from the council - which she has as much right as you to do - shit would hit the fan if a forged signiture was unearthed. But if she made a claim only to find that you had got there first, then no doubt she'd be arsey about it, but you wouldn't be shown to be a criminal, just thorough and thrifty.

While you are umming and ahhhing she might be writing her letter right now, properly.

Posted 2 years ago #
Trimix - Member

Skidartist has put it well, follow that advice.

Posted 2 years ago #
oneoneoneone - Member

get some one else to sign it!

Posted 2 years ago #

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