And anyone suggesting gun control in the wake of such an event gets accused of trying to politically profit from the event…. 😯

.@SebGorka: "People like Bernie Sanders, people like Hillary Clinton, are actually trying to profit politically from atrocity, from tragedy" pic.twitter.com/ojxNw8BAzp

— Fox News (@FoxNews) October 3, 2017

I wish less people would correct this 😉

“The US has high numbers of guns, therefore there is more chance for somebody to be killed by a gun”

– for those who haven’t watched it, that wasn’t a comment by John Oliver 🙄

whoop-de-doo

swimming in a sea of guns is a good thing

Sigh. I miss ninfan.

That was my first thought, just open up in the general direction of hotel with 2000 rooms or whatever.

They’ve all seen too many films.

This argument gets dragged out by the pro-gun lobby every time.

The idea of one (relatively) calm, rational, focussed person walking into a public area and systematically opening fire with prepared weapons is terrifying enough.

The idea that 100 nearby “concerned citizens” with little to no military training and no warning whatsoever would have the presence of mind to identify the threat, draw and preapre their own weapon and fire back in such a way as to neutralise the threat with no collateral damage is just insane.

You’d have 100 terrified idiots frantically fumbling round with a variety of random weaponry, looking around at the other 99 terrified idiots and one actual shooter and then unleashing a hail of poorly aimed rounds in the direction of anyone they deemed to be a threat.

There’s a lot of people who’ve spent far too long watching war films and playing first person shooter arcade games in the NRA.

A crazy as many an American’s attitude to gun control sound to us, this did make me wonder about our own acceptance of fatalities for certain rights or conveniences.

We had 5 dead and 66 seriously injured every day on UK roads in 2016. I guess most people would shrug their shoulders and say those numbers were pretty low and likely a price worth paying for the convenience of having our cars. Despite the death toll, we’re not having a national debate about road safety, restrictions on car licences, background checks, harsher penalties, etc. Rarely a mention of it in the media over here (oh other than the 1 fatality where a bike collides with and kills a pedestrian.)

I agree mrblobby, it’s something we should take a lot more seriously, but it’s a bit whataboutery.

If those things happened in one event then maybe it would. Stats from previously had more killed by guns than cars in Nevada.

You’d have 100 terrified idiots frantically fumbling round with a variety of random weaponry, looking around at the other 99 terrified idiots and one actual shooter and then unleashing a hail of poorly aimed rounds in the direction of anyone they deemed to be a threat.

Or potentially one person setting off some smoke grenades and bird scarers and shouting someone is shooting before ducking behind something solid whilst all the “concerned citizens” shoot each other.

Aracer, yes, was in two minds about posting it as it is a bit whataboutery. I’d just seen this chart for mass shootings in US and it just got me wondering how similar the one for road traffic accidents in the UK would look like. Trying to comprehend the US mentality to all this when the arguments against gun control seem so ludicrous to most of the rest of the world.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/chartimage?uri=/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/causesofdeath/bulletins/avoidablemortalityinenglandandwales/2015/b6454fd9
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/causesofdeath/bulletins/avoidablemortalityinenglandandwales/2015

A crazy as many an American’s attitude to gun control sound to us, this did make me wonder about our own acceptance of fatalities for certain rights or conveniences.

We had 5 dead and 66 seriously injured every day on UK roads in 2016. I guess most people would shrug their shoulders and say those numbers were pretty low and likely a price worth paying for the convenience of having our cars. Despite the death toll, we’re not having a national debate about road safety, restrictions on car licences, background checks, harsher penalties, etc. Rarely a mention of it in the media over here (oh other than the 1 fatality where a bike collides with and kills a pedestrian.)

For me there are some great and obvious differences –

1) We have, for many, many years sought to reduce the number of deaths and injuries on our roads, it’s a constant and never ending job and it works, people still die, but less and less of them whilst at the same time the number of road users grow.
2) Cars, Vans and Trucks are regulated, yearly checks for road-worthiness, you need to take a test, we have a system in place that removes or suspends drivers licenses if they’re medically or mentally unable to use it properly or even if they prove to be an idiot, this is debated constantly, just not as vocally as gun regs because it doesn’t grab headlines.
3) A vehicle can, and has been used as a weapon both deliberately and accidentally, but it’s not it’s primary purpose, and makers are making it harder and harder to do so.
A car is a form of transport, and always will be – you can use it as a weapon, but it’s not a weapon – a gun is a weapon and always will be, you can use it to put holes in paper targets, but it is a weapon.

mrblobby – Member

Despite the death toll, we’re not having a national debate about road safety, restrictions on car licences, background checks, harsher penalties, etc.

Point of order.
Roads are constantly being physically changed to improve safety, speed limits are reviewed, the licence is continually getting more comprehensive and harder, and penalties are getting harsher, with new penalties introduced all the time.
Our roads have seen fewer deaths since the mid sixties.

too many Americans who are in positions of power are just spectacularly thick.

…or lining their pockets.

So let’s assume for a moment everyone arrives at a concert tooled up. How do you figure out who is the bad guy?

Zulu’s out there somewhere reading this thread…

Roads and guns is a false comparison

As noted lots of restrictions and efforts to minimise the incidents and the sole purpose of a vehicle is not to injure folk unlike a gun.

We cannot make a society where no one has access to things that can be used to kill but we can make a society where folk dont have unrestricted access to things solely designed to kill.

A closer thing would be to compare knife crime. Anybody can go and buy a kitchen knife and do whatever they want with it.

Some people do more than prep veg with it and use it to kill someone. Should we control the purchase of kitchen knifes?

Or does it only become a problem when the numbers are high enough?

300,000 gun deaths in 10 years sounds high enough to me and certainly something I would focus on ahead on the 71 killed by terrorists.

The thing about roads is, the US has roads as well, they just also have loads of mass shootings.

beanum – Member

“Americans own over eight million AR-15s and buy hundreds of thousands of new ones every year.”

It’s not too surprising tbh, they’re kind of the hardtail of rifles- if you want to make a lot of noise in a range or back lot or desert then you can get a cheap, solid AR that’ll do the job for a few hundred dollars.You get a lot of, er, bangs for your buck and huge tinkering/hobbyist value too, because of the immense aftermarket and compatibility. There’s people that own a bunch of guns and no live rounds because they just like the kit.

It’s a long time since I’ve shot- like, 20 years I think- but I liked pretty much everything about it, it got me right in the hobbyist gland, just exactly the same as riding, cars etc got me. Interesting kit, absolutely lovely to work on- like metal duplo clockwork. And yeah, shooting stuff is fun. If I lived somewhere it was legal and commonplace, there’s a pretty good chance I’d own one. A big gun for the weekend, a fat gun for local shooting, a fast lightweight gun that I never use but don’t want to sell because I might get it out once a year, and I’d be on AR15trackworld buying upgrade bits for them… So I think I get it, I just don’t think any of that’s important because you’re weighing up the “right” to own a nice gun and have fun with it, vs the right to not get murdered, or killed in a totally forseeable “accident”

It’s not all about paranoia, or asserting your rights, or wanting to be a cowboy, or thinking you’re going to shoot down a baddy. Jim Jeffries is spot on, the biggest reason is “I like guns”.

forzafkawi – Member

Privately they might, publicly they will usually just trott out the usual “the only thing that can stop a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun” like they’re living in some kind of western movie.

Yeah, how come nobody in the crowd returned fire?

Apologies to anyone who failed to recognise the irony in my post.

Sickening events that raise so many questions, again. I generally avoid reading about these events as they make me so angry.

How long before someone asks himself “58, eh? I could do better than that…”

Judging by the comments I’ve seen on a US friend’s Facebook post I’d say that there were a few American Citizens analysing where the shooter made mistakes seconds after the news hit. Talk of which gun would be best, analysing different types of ammo to increase the ricochet effect and sweep techniques to catch more people as they run for cover were all there 😯

He’s deleted the post now purely due to the comments, he was actually calling for calm and asking his US friends to think about what guns they have at home but the viciousness of the comments that drew meant he had to delete it to save his sanity. He has no guns for the record.

Some people do more than prep veg with it and use it to kill someone. Should we control the purchase of kitchen knifes?

Firstly there is a control already in place so minors aren’t sold them, secondly it’s an offence (in this country) to carry them unless you can prove you have a reason to (chef going to work, just purchased one and on the way home etc.).

I realise it varies by State but it’s like the UK saying yes it’s fine for you to carry a knife as long as you passed a basic background check (and not even that in many cases), whether you’re mentally ill or not isn’t a factor either. Oh and just because you might want to you’re allowed swords and machetes as well in some counties as they’re all just types of knives, it doesn’t matter you’d have no reasonable justification for carrying such a weapon in a public place.

mrblobby – Member
A crazy as many an American’s attitude to gun control sound to us, this did make me wonder about our own acceptance of fatalities for certain rights or conveniences.

We had 5 dead and 66 seriously injured every day on UK roads in 2016. I guess most people would shrug their shoulders and say those numbers were pretty low and likely a price worth paying for the convenience of having our cars. Despite the death toll, we’re not having a national debate about road safety, restrictions on car licences, background checks, harsher penalties, etc. Rarely a mention of it in the media over here (oh other than the 1 fatality where a bike collides with and kills a pedestrian.)

Road saftey has been a constant issue in the uk and it has been getting constantly dealt with, still a long away to go with it mind, but particularly on a cycling forum I doubt you get many disagreements with the need for better road safety.

That graph is damning reading for this tory gov and the previous tory/lib dem coalition actually.

I reckon the cars analogy is actually better than you lot seem to think. Because he wasn’t talking about whether deaths were falling or we were putting measures in place to try and make the roads safer, but the attitudes of people. There is clearly a parallel to be drawn between the way people think they have a right to do something which is ingrained in society. Sure lots is done to make the roads safer, but it’s all somewhat limited by fundamental attitudes – and you do get people making arguments which aren’t so dissimilar to those of the gun lobby.

It is all a distraction though, because the fundamental benefits are so different. Clearly if you wanted you could just ban guns in the US tomorrow and society would keep on working.

A crazy as many an American’s attitude to gun control sound to us, this did make me wonder about our own acceptance of fatalities for certain rights or conveniences.

That’s my take.

There’s a price and a benefit to free availability of Guns. In the US they’ve decided the benifit is worth the price. It seems mental to us, just as a society that didn’t value cars would think we were mental to have cars because, in their view, it’s not worth the human cost. It’s the same decision just different variables.

Having said that, if they banned them, I think people in the US might find they don’t get as much benefit from assault rifles as they think they get.

To see how much of an outlier the USA really is check out this NY Times link and note the graph about a third of the way down the page.

but the attitudes of people.

i’d think most peoples attitudes are that it is something the government are actively trying to reduce, as well, it’s been that way since the 60s. The graph above was a bit of a surprise to me actually that it had stagnated in recent years.

Jim Jeffries is spot on, the biggest reason is “I like guns”.

Except that’s not what they say is it? They drone on about their rights under the US constitution as though there is some strong chance of the government coming to get them, whilst ignoring the rights of every other citizen not to get shot.

The graph above was a bit of a surprise to me actually that it had stagnated in recent years.

Guessing the government would put it down to immigration after looking it up in their book of scapegoats.

slowoldman – Member
Jim Jeffries is spot on, the biggest reason is “I like guns”.

Except that’s not what they say is it? They drone on about their rights under the US constitution as though there is some strong chance of the government coming to get them, whilst ignoring the rights of every other citizen not to get shot.

keep watching.

^ this.

There are the reasons people give for owning guns (protection against others, protection against the government) – which JJ shoots down (sorry) in a very humorous and sweary way, and then the REAL reason folks have guns.

As he says…. you do realise they have drones and shit nowadays?

[god help us when the NRA realise this, they’ll be demanding the right for all citizens to have their own drones]

There’s a price and a benefit to free availability of Guns. In the US they’ve decided the benifit is worth the price. It seems mental to us, just as a society that didn’t value cars would think we were mental to have cars because, in their view, it’s not worth the human cost. It’s the same decision just different variables

Except I think the stats go that it’s not a majority, the one gun for every American state misses that it’s a small number with quite a lot. Other states have much tighter controls that nevada and the world still turns.

I met a guy in Vegas who was pretty pleased as he’d just bought a new gun. Which was, and I am not kidding, to use between house (where he had a gun) and car (where he had a gun). The car gun was apparently carried concealed when out and about but he was concerned about being robbed, in his gated community, in the 20m between truck and door. Don’t get me wrong, I had a nice chat about other things too…

Nice chap but fell squarely into the “I like guns” category.

atlaz – Member
he was concerned about being robbed, in his gated community, in the 20m between truck and door

I think i’d just move if that was a serious concern…

Clearly if you wanted you could just ban guns in the US tomorrow and society would keep on working.

WTAF are you on?!! 😯 You must be some kind of crazy commumnist dingbat to suggest such a thing……………

he was concerned about being robbed, in his gated community, in the 20m between truck and door

presumably he was driving somewhere, what would he do when he got there? 😯 Home gun would be at home, car gun in the car, house/car gun sounds like it could only be used between house and car. 😯 CHRIST ON A STICK, HE IS AT RISK WHEN HE GETS THERE!!!!!! BUY MORE GUNS!!!!!!

Except I think the stats go that it’s not a majority,

If that’s true then we should pity them their flawed democratic system instead of mocking them and calling them names.

Except that’s not what they say is it?

I was doing an (IT!) training course in the US with 2 Texans. They had no qualms about saying they “liked guns”. The instructor was boasting about his collection. My obvious distaste at their conversation was amusing to them.

DezB – Member
They had no qualms about saying they “liked guns”

I don’t see any issue with liking guns, why you can’t like them at a secure gun club, i’ll never know. Actual hunting is fine by me too.

The car gun was apparently carried concealed when out and about but he was concerned about being robbed, in his gated community, in the 20m between truck and door.

I guess the perp could break into the truck and get the gun? 🙄

Driving around some of the southern states and see the trucks with the gun rack behind the driver…ready for action!

I think the other (unspoken) problem is that guns and ammo have a long shelf life. So they ban guns today the benefit comes in several decades time.

Much like us and using up all the fossil fuels/building on all the land/global warming, I guess.