I find there's a difference between "technical" climbs and just steep climbs. My hardtail is a rocket up hills, but there comes a point where the technicalities mean my 6" full susser is better. Not only does it have better traction but I can "steam-roller" up rocky sections that I would have difficulty on otherwise (I'm no Martyn Ashton!). Also it is easier to stay sat down on my full susser and winch my way up. The annoyance is that the full susser is way more fun at the trail centres...except on the dull fireroad climbs where I dream about being on my hardtail.
Bike Forum
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Is there too much focus on going down hill in bike design/reviews?
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Posted 2 years ago #
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Which is why you want a light XC bouncy bike...
Agree that hardtails are generally crap at technical climbing.
Posted 2 years ago # -
GEDA I don't really understand what you want? There is always a compromise - I bet a prophet climbs just fine tbh. If you don't and it bothers you then get something that climbs better, but accept that it might not be as good downhill.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Which is why you want a light XC bouncy bike...
...and so the quest for "one-bike-for-all" fails
Posted 2 years ago # -
@GEDA - my first "Cleland" is still being built up. This from a correspondent who's been riding them for years:
"The ethos of the Cleland is that of a competition trials mototbike, where getting off and walking is not allowed. It is in fact a trials motorbike minus the engine.
When climbing you lean forwards, just like a mountain bike, but your elboes bend further until your chest almost touches the handlebars. The Cleland NRS has a stem that can rotate 90 degrees, forwards and down, for long climbs and headwinds. It is when climbing out of the saddle that the Cleland is totally different. You stand upright and lean towards the hill to balance the weight between the wheels. (The torque reaction trying to lift the rear wheel is much easier to control on a cleland). The Clelands are good climbers, but out of the saddle, the NRS version is exceptional and can climb 44%+ incline (rises 44mm for every 100mm traveled). I'am still trying to work out why this is.
All the Clelands main features are designed to keep it going no matter what.
* High bottom bracket (so the peddals don't hit the ground)
* Short chainstays to keep the rider's weight over the rear wheel
* 650B or 700C wheel size (for maximum grip/minimum rolling resitance)
* Short distance from handlebars to saddle (this is more to do with comfort and keeping your body weight off the arms)
* Massive mud clearance (so it won't clog)
* Stayless mudguards and mudflaps (To keep rider and bike clean above the knee, and front whhel mud off the drive chain. Also so they won't clog and to stop twigs from snagging)other important features are:
*low tyre pressures for (for maximum grip/minimum rolling resitance & comfort)
*Sprung saddle (for comfort though suspension does a better job).
*High handlebars to keep your weight rearward, off your arms and allow for swift adjustments of body mass.
*A light and controllable front end that can easilly be lifted out of wheeltraps, over logs etc, and doesn't dig into mud or sand.
*reliable, progressive, and mudproof brakes.
*drive train protection from mud comming off the rear wheel.The Cleland NRS has some new features that are being evaluated, like the Shimano Inter8 hub gears that can be changed between any ratio instantly, even when climbing a steep hill.
The Cleland bicycle more 'alternative' than its tradditional looks would suggest.
You can see the steering geometry details on the 'Highpath' drawing."
Posted 2 years ago # -
and can climb 44%+ incline
now that I would love to see
Posted 2 years ago # -
Yep a 3-4" air sprung bouncer is the "Third Way" and probably the best option if you want an easier life, most bouncers will offer better traction, like I said though, most things are climb-able whatever you ride if you can read the trail ahead…
Seems to me like your want the moon on a stick though, a 6" super light bike that propels itself up the hills and flatters your talent quotient on the descent…
What do you actually need?
Posted 2 years ago # -
A motorbike?
Posted 2 years ago # -
That's more like it - numbers
So what's the steepest incline you can get up on a MTB?
Posted 2 years ago # -
Incidently, as long as your sensible with your airtime, I'd put money on a giant anthem (or similar) being the fastest bike arroud any trail center.
Dirt (IIRC) did a timed run of one of the Afan decents (the wall?), the bike was a SC nomad with pikes wound down to 100mm. I'm going to stick my neck out and say thats only because they didnt want to admit to riding a propeer 100mm travel steep angled bike (although they'r now having a love in with 100-130mm bikes by the looks of it)!
Posted 2 years ago # -
Again, from my correspondent:
"The 44% incline (measured with spirit level whilst holding the bike on the ridden slope) was using an EggRing/Shimano Inter8 drive chain. The steepest part 20 meter section the slope was was ridden with pedal power alone and with no run up. With this bike, when attempting to ride what appear to be impossibly steep slopes I am often surprised to I arrive safely at the top.
I also have an unaltered Giant NRS Carbon, that I use as a bench mark, despite its lower weight it cannot climb this hill."
Having used EggRings myself, I can say they make a major contribution to climbing ability, particularly technical climbing:
http://www.highpath.co.uk/cycles/ovals01.html
They are NOT the same as Biopace, but are similar to Q-Rings.
This is the set-up my correspondent uses on one of his bikes:
Posted 2 years ago # -
I agree with the original title. There does seem to be a big bias towards going downhill on current hardtails. The angles seem to be heavily biased towards fitting 130-160mm forks when the riding that most people are doing is not really in the same ballpark.
To give an example, there are LOTS of people on this forum with various On Ones, Cotic Souls, Pipedream Sirius etc. Nice frames which accept a 100-120mm fork with no troubles and cope with all manner of abuse on anything we can find in this country for general xc riding. The beast is easily achivable on any such bike.
But that market is not very fashionable these days. Forks are not getting shorter and we need the frames to match up. Along come things like the Blue Pig, 456, BFE etc etc. These frames are quite often just beefed up versions of existing angles so not even anything new. I dare say they make the downs more enjoyable, but does it make it a more complete bike?
The thing that makes me wonder about this even more is the fact that i noticed when the big take up of BFE's happened (Everyone was posting them up), a few months later i noticed a big surge in people selling them because they were struggling to make the most of the heavier, more dh inspried kit.
Posted 2 years ago # -
That's certainly oval...
Posted 2 years ago # -
Those appear to be Specialized Strong Arm cranks. Old school. Crap then, crap now.
Those rings look nuts too, far more 'exaggerated' than Rotor rings. You can keep them.
I'd definitely agree that a 'race' bike like an Anthem etc will be the quickest round most trail centres.
Posted 2 years ago # -
i blame the mags.
a good mate had his bike built up like a tank because that's what he saw in the mags all the time. he bought into this full face, freeride, google wearing, padded up style of riding.
he's now looking to get a Pike and sell his Lyrik (previously had 180mm double crown thing) because it's less weight and should mean he can ride up hill.
Posted 2 years ago # -
I'd definitely agree that a 'race' bike like an Anthem etc will be the quickest round most trail centres.
I reckon so too, but would it be the most fun? Depends what you are into I suppose. But given that descents are generally over fairly quickly, the thing that is going to make the most different to your time is performance on the climbs/flats.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Hmmm, yes I must admit I'd choose a slightly longer travel bike and go a bit slower on the climbs, but be able to make a few more mistakes on the way down!
Posted 2 years ago # -
njee20 - Member
Hmmm, yes I must admit I'd choose a slightly longer travel bike and go a bit slower on the climbs, but be able to make a few more mistakes on the way down!
Surely that goes against the racer ethos Nick?
Me i just want a bike that i enjoy riding up and down. My riding tends to involve just as much up as it does down. It also seems to involve some pushing and carrying. All things taken into account my hardtail with 115mm does the job. I would like to complement it with a 4" Lightish full susser when funds dictate
Posted 2 years ago # -
Well I think a bike has to be enjoyable to pedal since you'll spend 75% of your ride pedalling. If you're powerful then a big bike is OK to pedal and throw about. For me, I reckon more than 30lb is too annoying to pedal.
Posted 2 years ago # -
@njee20 - Fair enough, each to their own.
http://www.retrobike.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=512590#512590
They're not Specialized Strong Arm cranks, they're Thorn Vision:
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/product.asp?pf_id=9950&src=froogle
I'd definitely agree that a 'race' bike like an Anthem etc will be the quickest round most trail centres.
Probably true, but I'm yet to go to a trail centre that has very much 'technical', either up or down.
Posted 2 years ago # -
I reckon the fact that more people are taking their bikes abroad has an impact on where the market is going. I think that most trail centres do not need a long travel burly bike - any serious technicalities are over pretty quick. My experience of riding in Spain and the Alps is that the bouncier the bike the better, particularly if I get a lift back up again!
That said if I had to have the "one bike" it would be a full susser under 30lbs and certainly less than 6" travel...
...or maybe a road bike
Posted 2 years ago # -
About the cleland ideas - think "landrover" not " lancia stratos" Its about riding asnwhere and getting to places rather than how fast you can go.
Posted 2 years ago # -
If I'm going to ride up a technical climb I'll take my XC race bike, and accept it won't go down as well.
Well I quite not see the difference between a up or down tech trail. Both are about picking up your lines and keeping your wheels on the ground.Any modern enduro/xxxxxc/gnar rad dude riding/am jey core/ and so and so bike with 130/140 front and rear travel will be as good going up as it will be going down.
A HT is probably nowhere as good as a FS to go up, but pleny of people seems to think that getting battered is "faster".Posted 2 years ago # -
Surely that goes against the racer ethos Nick?
Yes, perhaps I'm defecting from my roots! Race bike for racing definitely, but even I can see where a bit more bounce would make things more fun. I do enjoy a social ride, contrary to popular belief and don't ride everywhere in my big ring!
Not too sure about your logic Juan, going up you're fighting gravity, so a lighter bike does it better, going down you're assisted by it, so a heavier bike does it better. Couldn't really be more opposite!
At the end of the day it's horses for courses, there's nothing out there that does it all perfectly. I only have one MTB, and it's a 21lb FS XC race bike. If I didn't race I'd have a longer travel bike, most likely still built very light, maybe a Mojo SL or sommat. I doubt it'd climb as well as the Epic (in that it would be slower), but it would probably be a bit more 'fun'.
Edit: as an aside:
Looks like Thorn may have used the same factory as Specialized did 10 years ago!
Posted 2 years ago # -
Not too sure about your logic Juan
Well if we talk about proper technical trail there is a lot of things in common. Most important in both cases being traction (way more important than weight) so a suspension set up that allows you to keep your wheel on the ground is going to do you more good than a few hundreds of grams of the frame.Posted 2 years ago # -
That Cleland stuff is fascinating.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Very true, and why a FS will beat a HT on very technical climbs.
A 85kg rider with a 12kg bike is only 3% lighter than the same guy with a 15kg bike. Traction makes much more difference.Posted 2 years ago # -
I agree that weight is not the sole/most important component, but it's a vast sweeping generalisation to say that a bike which does one will do t'other.
An 8" travel DH bike will have better traction than basically anything else out there and the back wheel's not gonna leave the ground, but it's not gonna climb well!
Edit: FS will beat HT because the HT will lose traction more easily, as you've just said, that's more important.
Posted 2 years ago # -
reckon so too, but would it be the most fun? Depends what you are into I suppose. But given that descents are generally over fairly quickly, the thing that is going to make the most different to your time is performance on the climbs/flats.
I recon the anthem would make up a lot of time on the downhills too! It might just be me but does anyone else feel that 'trail' bikes have got a whole lot duller over the years?
It struk me the other day that I would ride my cannondale f500 (24lb, 80mm travel, v-brakes, skiny tires) very quickly because it made you pointing the bike in one direction and lettign rip, accelerating on the smoother sections before letting it do it's thing over the bumpy bits (with very little controll!). In the same way I'd ride a DH bike, although obviously that would be able to cope with rougher ground, have more controll, and corner better. Most middling bikes in comparison just feel sluggish and don't inspire me to go quick?
Posted 2 years ago # -
Well njee define "beat a ht uphill"?
Is it faster? Will having to put foot down with a HT and still be faster than a FS with no foot down count as "beating"?I ride a 15 and something kg RM switch. Old school free ride bike, build and design to be ridden down at high speed (open angles, very high bb) and I still manage to get it to the top of some very technical climbs much better than on my HT.
I think most test are DH orientated because non of the bike I mention above are now bad at going uphill.
Posted 2 years ago # -
@njee20 - Fair point about the cranks... I already knew that though
Obviously, a Cleland is the antithesis of an XC race machine. As TJ says, more like a Land Rover or even a tractor. I have pretty much zero interest in racing - just don't see the point - but the Cleland design piqued my interest for Big Country Rides.
Posted 2 years ago # -
I'm not sure what you're getting at Juan, I agree with you (and have done throughout) that FS is better for a technical climb than a hardtail.
Posted 2 years ago # -
I don't get some of the replys on this thread. I said that I do not feel going down hill the bike holds you back much any more. It is the rider and I will be first to admit that I am not going to be trying any 5 meter gap jumps soon. I was just suprised how much more difficult getting up my favourite tricky bits on the trails are. Nothing to do with trail centers as I live in Sweden and they don't really exist. The only one which I have been to which were hard to climb was the bit before the black on Kielder (I blame being knackered), not been to that many though.
I also think there are different kinds of climb too technical ones and just long grinds. It is the technical ones which I mean and I find them easier to climb with a slacker angled bike. (I have a partiot and Prince Albert)
It just got my thinking that all reviews are about how hard you can ride a bike down hill when maybe bikes are good enough at this already. But there was such a difference between the PA and the Prophet going up technical bits that I thought it would be a good thing for people to think about.
But then again it is a bit like full sus. it is usefull for maybe 5% of the distance covered but those bits are the most fun.
Posted 2 years ago # -
My Giant Reign (6" front and rear) was the best climbing bike I've ever owned thanks to the Maestro suspension design and big fat tyres. And never held me back on the descents.
Posted 2 years ago # -
I reckon it's mostly rider ability that determines success, uphill and downhill. Good fitness, technical ability, fast thinking, bike handling, all of those will contribute more than the bike will. (that weird Cleland aside). Having said that, there's surprisingly little I can't climb on my Chameleon, that I could do on any FS I had.
Posted 2 years ago #
Topic Closed
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