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Yeah, but the election is May's to lose and Corbyn's to win. Following the status quo will not get Labour closer to the win.
and his reason for agreeing to the GE was "to put our case to the people".
There's his chance, and he's backing off.
A mistake I feel.
Corbs thinks he can win by playing fair.
Imo he needs a few low blows! Demanding a debate for the people would be a winner and the red tops would go with it as well.
On the other hand the Greens/ Lib Dems/ Plaid/ SNP are as critical of Labour as of the Tories so if he was ona stage with them they'd gang up. Brexit etc.
As long as he doesn't send Diane in to deputise! 😉
He should definitely be there and let ITV empty chair May,
It is quite cowardly of her but then we've seen how bad she is at relating to people, keeping? the public at arms length tru the campaign and look at her inability to get through dinner with Junker!
She's weak and she knows it, wonder how much is fear of her own party? once it's obvious to all that her Brexit has put us in the shitter then her colleagues will move swiftly to knife her in the back, they are far more efficient at that sort of stuff than labour, just ask Borris Johnson !
She's weak and she knows it
Surely you mean she is strong and stable. How many times does she have to say it before you understand that it is the truth...
Goebells "Big Lie"
mattjg - MemberWhy won't Corbyn debate on TV?
He's already won the only debate that matters, the one against Theresa May, by default. Now he's in the position she was- he's more likely to lose out in a debate with the smaller parties and they benefit more from having the platform. The difference is, he's not the one to blink first so he loses less by not debating, it should just serve as a reminder that May bottled it. I think they need to spin it better tbh, it should be a chance to stick the knife into May and also talk the Lib Dems down as not really being rivals, but it's basically a good decision.
^ This
If he / they aren't prepared to coalesce to win enough seats to beat May, then he feels he needs to present Labour as the only alternative that can stop her getting her 'overwhelming mandate'
So if in his mind it's Tory vs Labour as the only choice, and the Tories won't enter that particular race, why muddy the situation by seeing how good the others are.
I also saw a comment somewhere, but can't find it now, about why anyone would vote LD if they are a Labour supporter (I also think it was NW who said it, not sure) - they should back their party.
I think tactical voting has to be employed. Frankly, it looks unlikely even with the recent swings that anyone else can gain a majority, so the next step to me is to make sure that May doesn't get the 'strong mandate' that she feels she needs to do what the hell she pleases post Jun 8.
So much as i dislike tactical voting, this time round when the choice is really between 'Give me a strong mandate' or 'Don't give me a strong Mandate' then it's the sensible option. And if that can ultimately reduce the majority sufficiently (or even give us a hung parliament) then it'll be worth it.
Corbyn will duck it because he's not very good in those situations and also doesn't want to have to deal with the SNP problem.
Something funny's happening with voter registration, tactical voting and opinion polls.
Don't know what, but something is.
Probably still a landslide for May, but something I don't fully understand is going on
Perhaps the young are finally getting angry about the old stealing their future.
I wonder which camp I'm in.
May is a giant in comparison to Corbyn and has been a very very popular PM to date. Hence Strong and Stable.
@igm without the old the young wouldn't exist and would have no future. Cultures like the Chinese rever the old for their wisdom, it seems here they think they know best ? BTW did you see the Tpries are now second to Labour amongst students having overtaken the Lib Dems.
Why won't Corbyn debate on TV? I understand why May won't, but Corbyn has all to gain and usually presents well.
1) Miliband was slaughtered by Sturgeon which directly lead to tactical voting against the Lib Dems in the West Country, Labour have plenty to lose. Tories are specifically referencing the danger of a Labour govt proppsed up by the SNP. The SNP are poison in the South for certain and imo the rest of England too.
2) Corbyn presents appallingly
1) What on earth is the logic at use there?SNP kills labour Lib dems suffer - I am going to have to see your working out there as it looks prima facie gibberish
2) begs the question of why may is so unwilling to wipe the floor with him seeing as the SNP will also be there to do the same
He wont as she wont [ be there] , it is that simple ; she wont as she is winning.
May only does what Lynton Crosby tells her to do. She's hardly likely to do a TV debate when she won't engage with anyone during her UK tour apart from the tory boys and girls who are being bussed in to each event. Perish the thought she'd actually answer a question from the electorate. No wonder jamba is such a fan.
BTW did you see the Tpries are now second to Labour amongst students having overtaken the Lib Dems.
Jamba - Yep. They are now up to a third of the support Labour have. 55% Labour, 18% Tory
On the old/young thing, you are I think into the old camp, I'm desperately pretending I'm still young. A lot of the young think the older generation sold them out, took the money from good jobs, pensions and house price rises and ran. Look at employment and types of employment too. Don't underestimate the chances of the young turning against the old.
I demand the EU returns the keys to the scout huts and community halls into which they're locking Mummy in order to interfere with our election.
Saw this in the Guardian today.
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/03/the-force-may-be-with-you-in-a-strong-and-stable-war-on-brussels ]Supreme Leader Kim-Jong-May[/url]
Amusing.
I haven't seen Corbyn meeting too many middle class voters ? Nope just wheeling him out in front of the party faithful, which is the norm for every party. We have already seen Farron come a cropper.
It's going to be a poor night at the Local elections as turnout will be low and Tories / SNP are motivated to win target seats.
A month-ish to go the GE
A steller result for Labour 50 seat Tory majority
Expected result for Labour 100 seat Tory majority
A bad result for Labour 150 seat Tory majority
What matters for Labour is what they do next
"What matters for Labour is what they do next"
Deselect moderate Labour MPs like it's going out of Fashion.
Unless JC uses an election loss as an excuse to resign, but I don't think that will go down well with his following.
which is the norm for every party
#jambafact
young wouldn't exist and would have no future
WTF does that actually mean??
An awful lot of the young feel the old are stealing their future. Your arrogance is feeding their anger & isolating them even further. I'd be very careful if I were you because they are the ones who'll be looking after you.......
Furthermore, are you daring to suggest that the young should defer & doff their caps to the their elders because they know better by virtue of being older??
Get over yourself!
which is the norm for every party
No just the ones with really really awkward leaders
Maybot has been programmed to emulate the full range of human emotions, she's just missing that vital spark
Farron hardly came a cropper, he dealt with a ranty OAP Brexiter quite well, we all know theres no reasoning with them 😉
Bloody foreigners interfering in our elections.
Unless your name is Rupert or Lynton, in which case, please interfere away, as Mummy clearly doesn't have a clue.
In China the old may well be revered for their wisdom.
Here they are an enormous horde of ungrateful minging old ****s, selfishly clinging on to their futile, piteous existences while they gobble up billions of NHS pounds each year in palliative care.. Sitting stubborn and full of venom in their one chair in a house stuffed full of empty rooms, with bank accounts stuffed full of cash, moaning to anyone that will listen because they have to pay for an incontinence pad..
So desperately bound to the irrelevant comforts of the past, so befuddled by the present that they are prepared to steal the futures of their grandchildren..
**** 'em
The old get old, the young get stronger.
Or they (young) follow the Darwin process all over again ... 😆Lifer - Member
The old get old, the young get stronger.
[url= https://twitter.com/hoodedman1187/status/858422995689275392 ]Very good tweet story regarding Strong and Stable here[/url] retweeted by @davidallengreen who speaks sense regarding brexit, unlike jamba/ninfan/chewy who spout bile and shite
Great link somafunk. An explicit summary of the problem
Good link @somafunk.
Also, far more simplistically. IMO they're sticking to a strapline based on what happened in the Brexit vote. The leave campaign had a strong 'take back control' mantra. They're copying that successful tactic.
retweeted by @davidallengreen who speaks sense regarding brexit, unlike jamba/ninfan/chewy who spout bile and shite
Can I just check, is that the same David Allen Green who confidently spent months predicting that article 50 would never be triggered?
@nifan. Who doesn't get the political predictions wrong?
If not reading commentators who get it wrong was the basis for your knowledge accumulation you'd limit your own knowledge base and get it wrong too..makes you think hey.. 😀
Interesting link soma funk, but is that wee story really representative of the UK, or a tale seen through the eyes of a privileged middle class white boy?
Difficult for me to tell (I'm foreign), but growing up in the 60's and 70's we had an awful lot of immigrants from the UK fleeing what they felt was a pretty shit life.
FWIW, I think every generation is going to complain about how good life was for their parents.
"Here they are an enormous horde of ungrateful minging old *, selfishly clinging on to their futile, piteous existences while they gobble up billions of NHS pounds each year in palliative care.. Sitting stubborn and full of venom in their one chair in a house stuffed full of empty rooms, with bank accounts stuffed full of cash, moaning to anyone that will listen because they have to pay for an incontinence pad..
So desperately bound to the irrelevant comforts of the past, so befuddled by the present that they are prepared to steal the futures of their grandchildren..
* 'em"
You're saying *they* are full of venom?
I know a fair few old people, they all seem really nice to me.
FWIW, I think every generation is going to complain about how good life was for their parents.
Being as this is the first generation where the young will be worse off than their parents it's a new one is the it.
As for older people try suggesting a 50% drop in house prices and see the reaction.... People worked hard to see an asset grow for no serious investment.
UKIP totalled in the locals and Labour down but not I think as much as the polls might suggest.
Early days wait for the full results and analysis, but this might just be very interesting.
Being as this is the first generation where the young will be worse off than their parents it's a new one is the it.
Pretty specious comment there Mike.
Which generation are you referring to- give me a range of birthdates.
What population- UK, western world,the whole world?
What's worse off really mean?
30 somethings
www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/07/revealed-30-year-economic-betrayal-dragging-down-generation-y-income
http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/programs/hack/generation-less-why-young-people-are-worse-off-than-their-parent/7320370
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jul/18/millennials-earn-8000-pounds-less-in-their-20s-than-predecessors
Housing that requires a double income, end of final salary pensions, end of student grants and introduction of fees, higher taxes and vat, higher living costs, less job security etc. It's not a hard equation.
"Pretty specious comment there Mike.
Which generation are you referring to- give me a range of birthdates.
What population- UK, western world,the whole world?
What's worse off really mean?"
This. Even if u limit it to the UK, I doubt the people who had to fight in WW1 thought their parents were worse off. ...and then how do you measure 'better off'. My grandparents didn't have 21st century healthcare, a smart phone, Amazon and free porn.
If you needed older generations don't get what's going on with younger generations it's there. Smart phones make up for no pension and unobtainable housing.
I nicked this from reddit, because.....its hilarious 🙂
[i]Paul Nuttall feebly tries to attach his harness as his once-airworthy plane plummets to earth. He feels a strong yet firm, stable hand on his shoulder cautioning him to stop. He looks up, it's Theresa May.[/i]
[b]May[/b]: [raspily] No! They expect one of us in the wreckage, brother!
[i]Nuttall's expression seems to be conflicted, in the length of a single breath he contemplates the finality of death, the worthiness of his cause and the cruelty of fate. He steels himself, and his gaze meets May's.[/i]
[b]Nuttall[/b]: Have we started the fire?
[b]May[/b]: [muffled] Yes, the fires rises.
[i]May hurriedly attaches a harness around a hysterical Douglas Carswell who is kicking up a fuss about being injected with the Conservative party line direct from a drip attached to the long-dead corpse of John Major.[/i]
[b]May[/b]: [wheezing with great difficulty] Calm down Douglas, now is not the time for fear- that comes later.
[i]Carswell only shrieks louder as May activates the winch and they are both wrenched high into the air. Below them the UKIP plane is seen plummeting to earth, Nuttal still strapped inside.[/i]
[i]The camera switches to a view of Carswell and May swinging precariously mid-air with their winch attached to a large aircraft with a Conservative logo on the side. After several seconds an explosion is heard but not seen....[/i]
[i]Fin...[/i]
"If you needed older generations don't get what's going on with younger generations it's there. Smart phones make up for no pension and unobtainable housing."
Lack of rationing might (ended. in '54) having a Dad who lives at home instead of being away in Africa fight Germans might.
Oh I dunno.. If the right wing arrogance plays out unchecked I can see rationing and the blitz coming back into fashion..
You carry on living in the past measuring yourself against irrelevant historical incidents OOB..
BUT for heaven's sake leave the voting to those more interested in the future
Lack of rationing might.
that started ending in 1948 and was completely ended in 1954.
So how did life turn out? House paid for? Food on the table? Government and employer pension?
The housing one is interesting. There is a school of thought that says things expand to fill the space available - Boyle's law IIRC, or the dustbin theory.
In this case double salary couples became common (remember DINKYs?) and the cost of houses expanded to fill that income. There's no real driver to the housing market growth other than two buyers wanting to live somewhere and being willing to pay what it takes.
Which was fine while 20-30 somethings incomes grew nicely.
Things will change.
The automation horror stories are real on one level, but they're either worse or better on another - because if 20% of the population have no buying power, who is going to buy the stuff automated machines make? So either the automated companies go bust and everyone is in the soup or the 20% still have some buying power.
Third world comparisons don't work in this scenario because the third world sells to external markets allowing a small elite to live in luxury.
outofbreath - Member
"If you needed older generations don't get what's going on with younger generations it's there. Smart phones make up for no pension and unobtainable housing."Lack of rationing might (ended. in '54) having a Dad who lives at home instead of being away in Africa fight Germans might.
Things to thank the ECHR, EU (and predecessors) and NATO for. Two of which the UK is attacking and the other of which is not as fit for purpose as it was.
You carry on living in the past measuring yourself against irrelevant historical incidents OOB..
The living standards of old people was a point made by you.
that started ending in 1948 and was completely ended in 1954.
Yup. A period of time only currently old people will have lived through.
I'm failing to see the relevance OOB.
As I see it... Things were bad, via things like economic cooperation and binding our social values together (and remembering not to have Anglo-Franco-German wars ever 30 years of course) they got steadily better.
Now the future's not looking so rosy folk would like to turn things back to when they were dire.
Does not compute. Daft. Silly.
I assume he didn't read the articles linked...
Housing that requires a double income, end of final salary pensions, end of student grants and introduction of fees, higher taxes and vat, higher living costs, less job security etc. It's not a hard equation.
+1.
Add to that a worsening climate, a more polluted environment, the £ being worth less, a higher likelyhood of having to work all your life because your pension isn't worth sh1t.
Really makes you wonder how one can avoid the realisation that the millenials are really being dealt a bit of a cr@p hand by the preceding generation..
If the younger generation won't go out and vote, politicians won't care about their problems.
Glad to see Steven Kinnock making a good case for an electable moderate Labour Party. He'd get my vote for Leader.
Glad to see Steven Kinnock making a good case for an electable moderate Labour Party. He'd get my vote for Leader.
Which won't happen until he shows some courage and stands for election.
I'm a 'millennial' (just about, by most definitions) and my parents didn't live through rationing, so I doubt the parents of hardly any did, so it's pretty much completely irrelevant.
My parents are quite aware/sad about the fact that their generation was in most ways incredibly lucky and that the progress in living standards generation by generation that was expected to continue forever has in fact reversed.
To my mind there is no reason to assume that we in Britain/ the west should always automatically be wealthy but it's a terrible shame that it's the poorest in society bearing the brunt of it.
I'm not bitter about not being part of that generation but it is galling when many of the people who have enjoyed so many of those benefits - literally some of the luckiest people in human history - are such moany, miserable, selfish, entitled, small-minded, ungrateful ****s who are making things much worse than they need to be for future generations.
[quote=codybrennan ]I nicked this from reddit, because.....its hilarious
Paul Nuttall feebly tries to attach his harness as his once-airworthy plane plummets to earth. He feels a strong yet firm, stable hand on his shoulder cautioning him to stop. He looks up, it's Theresa May.
May: [raspily] No! They expect one of us in the wreckage, brother!
Nuttall's expression seems to be conflicted, in the length of a single breath he contemplates the finality of death, the worthiness of his cause and the cruelty of fate. He steels himself, and his gaze meets May's.
Nuttall: Have we started the fire?
May: [muffled] Yes, the fires rises.
May hurriedly attaches a harness around a hysterical Douglas Carswell who is kicking up a fuss about being injected with the Conservative party line direct from a drip attached to the long-dead corpse of John Major.
May: [wheezing with great difficulty] Calm down Douglas, now is not the time for fear- that comes later.
Carswell only shrieks louder as May activates the winch and they are both wrenched high into the air. Below them the UKIP plane is seen plummeting to earth, Nuttal still strapped inside.
The camera switches to a view of Carswell and May swinging precariously mid-air with their winch attached to a large aircraft with a Conservative logo on the side. After several seconds an explosion is heard but not seen....
Fin...
😆
Fantastic
If the younger generation won't go out and vote, politicians won't care about their problems.
Indeed, engagement is an issue - it doesn't, however, make their problems any less relevant.
I'm failing to see the relevance OOB.
Not sure it *was* especially relevant.
The original point was:
this is the first generation where the young will be worse off than their parents
Not so IMHO. You can argue it either way and according to your criteria pick any period of history to support it or disprove it.
Not so IMHO.
I guess that all depends on where your looking from.
I was born in 76. how about you?
If the younger generation won't go out and vote, politicians won't care about their problems.
It's catch 22, isn't it. Younger people stop voting because they feel that politicians don't care about them. Politicians look at voting demographics and care even less about them.
Not so IMHO. You can argue it either way and according to your criteria pick any period of history to support it or disprove it.
Did you read the articles? It had actual evidence.
Did you read the articles? It had actual evidence.
Evidence schmevidence! OOB has got his opinion, that's worth more than a million facts, [s]FACT![/s] IMHO!
It had actual evidence.
Evidence is so 2015.
OOB has got his opinion, that's worth more than a million facts
You can prove anything with facts.
this is the first generation where the young will be worse off than their parents
Not so IMHO. You can argue it either way and according to your criteria pick any period of history to support it or disprove it.
I guess that all depends on where your looking from.
2017.
I was born in 76. how about you?
You are wrong then as your generation still had student grants etc. unlike now.
However, I'm dubious about the idea that this present generation is worse off than their predecessors. Never before have so many been to Uni, never before have people had access to information, cheap travel etc. Unemployment is pretty low by historical standards. Credit is now easy and cheap. NHS is better than ever before. Annual leave is longer, H&S is vastly improved.
Sure it's still not perfect, but would you really rather have been born post war, at the end of rationing or now?
avoiding the question then. baby boomer at a guess.
achieved your strong and stable lifestyle through pure hard work... 😀
You are wrong then as your generation still had student grants etc. unlike now.
loans came in the year before I went. no tuition fees but no maintenance grant either. That felt like a kick, I doubt I'd go to university now.
Evidence schmevidence! OOB has got his opinion, that's worth more than a million facts,
Is it an opinion? I mean I haven't written an essay citing sources but doesn't the the idea that everyone has got better off year on year through history seem a bit unlikely to you?
There's been plague, warfare, famine.
Was someone born in 1900 better off than their parents? They'd live through two world wars and a great depression.
When the Normans turned up whole sections of the country were worse off.
Given total agreement this is all irrelevant we seem to be spending an awful lot of time talking about!
So your basing it on opinion while many actually have looked and studied it and dispute your opinion.
However, I'm dubious about the idea that this present generation is worse off than their predecessors. Never before have so many been to Uni
and it's almost pointless, i see routinely graduates with significant science degrees (forensic psychology for instance) applying for diagnostic technician roles
never before have people had access to information,
Are you actually referring to google and wikipedia, here? 😆
cheap travel etc.
never mind you won't ever own a home, go to ibiza
Unemployment is pretty low by historical standards
but is almost universally un-secure
Credit is now easy and cheap.
you are a consumer, that is your role in society, do your duty...
NHS is better than ever before.
busy treating baby boomers, young people tend not to need health care
Annual leave is longer, H&S is vastly improved.
but employment rights are fast disappearing.
"year on year" isn't the question, it's 2-3 decades that matters (generation).
Maybe it's possible that some war or plague has caused a 25-year recession but I've not seen the evidence for it.
loans came in the year before I went. no tuition fees but no maintenance grant either. That felt like a kick, I doubt I'd go to university now.
So you were anti allowing more people to go to Uni and bringing facilities up to date then, as that's why fees came in.
Which point in time do you think was better to live in than now?
Which point in time do you think was better to live in than now?
So would i trade being able to post this from a plane or for buying a house that will appreciate in value 4x for very little effort and a final salary pension?
So your basing it on opinion while many actually have looked and studied it and dispute your opinion
You've forgotten....we don't like "experts"....
So you were anti allowing more people to go to Uni
I don't believe that increasing the numbers at university has been a great success.
Maybe it's possible that some war or plague has caused a 25-year recession.
Which is my point in a nutshell, and I've not sure the "so called" evidence disproves it - how do you disprove a negative anyway.
And yes, this is just from my memory but in the Norman Conquest it's reckoned 2/3s of the population were significanty worse off long term, they were taxed to the max & there was the Harrying of the North:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b009q7zm
So yes, it's opinion but in my opinion the genration following the Norman conquest were 'worse off'.
outofbreath>> Not so IMHO.
outofbreath>> Is it an opinion?
What do you think the "O" in "IMHO" stands for?
So yes, it's opinion but in my opinion the genration following the Norman conquest were 'worse off'.
i feel much better now. thanks.
edit:
but isn't it interesting you have to go back nearly 1000yrs to make your point....
Man reaches back to Norman conquest to defend baby boomer inequality says the onion and daily mash.....
No, I (b.1968) was the last year to get full grant support, my wife (b.1969) had one year of loans. Of course there weren't the fees and most students left with moderate debts, easily paid off soon after starting work. I bought a smart flat very easily by myself for 3x my moderate salary (scientists have never been well paid) at the top of the market, lost a bit when I sold a couple of years later but not enough to matter. Living costs have always been well below salary (NB no children makes a huge difference though).
Now, most will never pay off their debts (which of course does mean the debt isn't as big a problem as the headline figure appears, but it's still there, and quite large). Virtually no-one can buy a house by themselves (or even as a working couple) when they leave uni, and rents are so high as to prevent them saving enough for deposits.
where is jamie when you need him?
i can see a new tory poster.
vote brexit - it won't be as bad as the norman conquest.
Man reaches back to Norman conquest to defend baby boomer inequality says the onion and daily mash.....
😆
