the farce of a membership consultation with heavily weighted answers.

Is this the one with the daft questions about whether you think mountain biking improves the environment? I did email the guy who drew it up and he sent an apologetic reply which acknowledged how badly worded it was. I think he just wanted to get people thinking, and maybe also go back to Natural England with some evidence that mountain bikers care about where they ride. Should have been done better but his heart was in the right place.

Trailmonkey – sorry, I missed the development of this. Just to clarify, I’m a member of LCC and British Cycling and have been Sustrans and CTC from time to time. I know they do good work and am happy to support, but the focus seems to be on concerns that I don’t particularly have. LCC is going mental about motorbikes in bus lanes at the moment for example. I don’t care either way, so I just let them get on with it. Equally, Surrey is not somewhere wiith mtb access issues, so I guess I don’t notice where the CTC is doing very good things. And my all-time favourite tea stop is run by a chap who is a sustrans ranger on one of the higher parts of the C2C. I wasn’t having a dig at them particularly. But it sounds as though I should be paying more attention. 🙂

Having (skim) read the replies above it seems that there is something of a selfish slant to some of the arguments i.e. “IMBA-UK is not relevant to me” which then is translated into “IMBA-UK is not relevant to UK mountain biking”.

I may have the wrong end of the stick here but the two are not necessarily linked. I’m not a member of the Scout movement but it doesn’t make it any less relevant or useful to the society (waits for flaming of this example).

it seems that there is something of a selfish slant to some of the arguments

in my original post I asked what proportion of people’s riding was at trail centres since this is what IMBA seem to be focussed on. In the UK there must be 20 times (or 100 or 1000 ?) times as many miles of non-trail centre trails, so unless there are a LOT of exclusively trail centre riders they are not serving the needs of most MTBers

But then it is only a small few riders who will bother to speak to anyone about their needs (other than to wax lyrical on forums).

Praise to those riders who have and continue to bring user issues to the attention of groups such as IMBA-UK and CTC and I have to agree that it is a shame and wasted opportunity when these issues go by without being dealt with.

st has hit the nail on the head.

sfb, you’re wilfully ignoring the fact that a) there are lots of riders who much prefer trail centres to the natural riding their area has to offer, and b) IMBA has done a lot of work in relation to RoW previously, and you’re just singling out the latest issue of newsletter to try and generate an argument.

Why IMBA UK?

The rapid growth in the popularity of mountain bike recreation in the UK has led to an increasing need for a wide range of trails and riding opportunities. The partnership developed with the Forestry Commission has provided high quality MTB trails in Wales and Scotland, with an increasing commitment in England. IMBA UK aims to provide a focus for UK mountain bikers to work with public and private land and trail managers by:

* Building and supporting a strong and effective volunteer MTB network.
* Working with the Forestry Commission and other landowners to build new trails.
* Developing positive relationships with government agencies and Local Authorities.
* Cultivating partnerships with cycle clubs, cycle shops and the cycle industry.
* Working with other UK cycle organisations to maximise benefits for mountainbikers.

A successful IMBA UK will ensure that we have a strong and effective voice to enable us to build new trails, help maintain the existing network, and to defend our recreation against trail closures or restrictions.

From the IMBA website.

See anything about campaigning to widen access to existing rights of way?

The message is clear that IMBA only see trailbuilding as the future.

Why do they have all the stuff about bridleways in their FAQ then?

I’d agree that there’s a “don’t upset the apple cart” mentality going on but it’s unfair to peg them as a trail centre-only organisation.

CTC’s Countryside Access campaign is calling on the Government to overhaul England and Wales’ rights of way legislation, bringing it into line with the Scottish system. Cyclists should have the right to cycle wherever they like – provided they are courteous and considerate to other rights of way users, landowners, and the environment.

CTC for the win imo.

Why do they have all the stuff about bridleways in their FAQ then?

Who cares?

Widening access ala CTC’s aims should be a clear aim of the organisation. You know like number one reason of “Why IMBA?”.

Hiding it away in a FAQ doesn’t make it sound like it’s an aim at all.

Praise to those riders who have and continue to bring user issues to the attention of groups such as IMBA-UK and CTC

so the organisations just have to sit by and wait for someone else to do their work ?

sfb, you’re wilfully ignoring the fact that a) there are lots of riders who much prefer trail centres to the natural riding their area has to offer

so I understand, and I did ask about that, trying to quantify “lots”

IMBA has done a lot of work in relation to RoW previously, and you’re just singling out the latest issue of newsletter to try and generate an argument.

well, that was the one I was actually moved to read. I was looking for a discussion, not an argument, and that’s what I got. Although I wished IMBA well, and the Bog Trotters were affiliated for a while, I was always sceptical about the “International” tag to an organisation which seemed to me to be fragmented and mainly aspirational – as far I was able to make out they never had an accessible representative for The Lakes…

Dave, do you see any mention of access issues in here?

http://www.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=5254

I’d judge an organisation by what they do, rather than how punchy their press releases are.

Dave, do you see any mention of access issues in here?

Oh please, it’s right there on the “what we do” page

http://www.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=4520

Not hidden away in a FAQ

it’s right there on the “what we do” page

Which takes you to an FAQ on rights of way and how to claim them. It’s better laid out, but the content is pretty similar to the one on the IMBA site.

If you’re saying that IMBA should be campaigning harder for England and Wales to have a modernised access policy in line with Scotland’s, I’d agree with that completely, but to me there doesn’t seem to be much difference. Both organisations currently seem to be going for a piecemeal approach.

Before any gains on access can be made there needs to be some basic hard data to show how important biking is, how bikers ride and that mountain biking isnt sustrans rail trail rural recreational cycling. Who ever takes it on getting needs to get an effective network of contacts with rights of way etc and the information to back up the arguements.

How can mountain biking make any gains when strategy documents like the west pennine bridleways one quantify horse riding numbers by livery and stabling in the area. Quantifying mountain biking as anecdotal evidence suggests numbers are increasing.

Start with the basics. Unfortunately IMBA doesnt seem like its ever going to be a big organisation and the international element of the name might actually work against it at a local level.

I’d also add here, that certainly when I was involved, the ethos throughout was very much to offer advice and guidance to “hand hold” people in their own pet projects on a local level – the people at IMBA level were there to coordinate and teach, and allow the effort to come under an umbrella towards the same goal – sort of a mountain bike Al-Quaida

unfortunately, it seems that people want someone to do things “for” them rather than show them how to do it themselves, especially on the ROW side of things. At the same time, more could have been done to educate riders how to make a difference, which goes back to the comments over volunteer time and budget – Although CTC have done some sterling work on ROW issues, the emphasis is still on a macro/governmental policy scale rather than local effort and support, covering ROWIP consultations and ALF’s – apublishing a few how to guides on the website isn’t enough to make a difference!

what’s that old saying about give a man a fish and he’ll eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he’ll…

teach a man to fish and he’ll…

sit by the canal for the rest of his life cluttering the towpath with rods ??

>what’s that old saying
SHow a man a fire and he’ll be warm for the night. Set a man on fire and he’ll be warm for the rest of his life. Or something.

DO they ? I’ve never seen a ranger never mind a public body on a trail, so I think they have very little effect at all…

I have, only a couple of times in lots of years of riding admittedly but a couple of months ago I was on rushup edge, we had genuinley not seen the turn off for the Bway and a ranger stopped us, told us the bway was ‘just the other side of that wall’ but she wanted us to go back to the turn off – whether she expected us to walk back or ride I dont know but we just chucked our bikes over the wall.

I just wonder if the CTC started the “clear that trail” site when IMBA was threatening to be popular then closed it when imba died a death? Cynical aint i?

To answer the OP about 3 rides a year at trail centres tops I think, a bit more if you include using that climb from the grizedale centre to get to parkamoor (another few times a year)

a bit more if you include using that climb from the grizedale centre to get to parkamoor

a good point – I visit Grizedale a lot, but mostly to ride ancients roads which existed long before bikes were invented!

Dave – Moderator
Widening access ala CTC’s aims should be a clear aim of the organisation.

I prefer narrow singletrack to wide access trails- IGMC.

fwiw I personally know two ex members of IMBA and their hearts were in the right place but other stuff (such as building trails) was less grief. I think the ex-IMBAers learnt alot of positives and how to overcome negatives, the FC have serpently got educated due to this brief period of input from IMBA and the knowledge carried on from this.

I see the local rangers quite a lot down here – in fact a couple of us met the local NT ranger this morning to talk about access issues – and had a really productive time. Generally, the Hurtwood ranger, NT rangers and Wooton estate land agents are quite regular sightings on the Surrey Hills.

I rather thought that CTC did ‘Clear that trail’ after it found that there was quite a lot of enthusiasm for http://www.fillthathole.org.uk/ – the road equivalent. But what do I know, eh? 😛

Its quite funny because with the work hat on I dont see many mountain bikers out on the trail during the day but I do tend to see more than walkers and horse riders when I’m on a bridleway and sometimes when i’m not. When I’m riding I dont see many rangers etc as its normally evenings or quieter areas at weekends. And to be quite honest unless I’ve got some obvious work related gubins with me most bikers probably think I’m a walker.

All Peak District Rangers live down there :FACT: >>>