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Bike Forum
Hydraulic Road Disc Brakes - confirmed
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Posted 3 months ago #
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Please name them for the average rider.
a new bike for a start, remember roadies aren't exactly known for being faddy.
a pain when dealing with punctures.
having to ensure all your wheels are shimmed correctly, and if sharing wheels between a road and tt bike that is going to be a pain.
extra weight, twisting forces on front forks.
a lot of the time, why? yes they offer more power, but more isn't needed most of the time. Road bikes don't need stopping, just slowing down.then in race situations neutral service becomes impossible. at the moment there are two basic setups, campag 11 and shimano/sram, hubs are 130mm. throw in disc/caliper and unless you get a universal agreement on rotor size and position and caliper position how do ou do it?
aerodynamics are minor but the faster you go the more it matters, read Magura's points on this.Posted 3 months ago # -
aerodynamics are minor but the faster you go the more it matters, read Magura's points on this.
If it mattered I'm sure it can be factored into a good frame design, i.e. the caliper could shielded from the wind a bit, but I suspect that without the need to have part of the frame close to the tyre, the frame and forks could be more slippery - one of the new aero bikes has seat stays that bulge out from the wheel to smooth the airflow... just a possibility.
The pros outweigh the cons IMO
Posted 3 months ago # -
The pros outweigh the cons IMO
IYO, others might disagree, in the end most people will end up with discs, not because people want it but because it is what will be available
Posted 3 months ago # -
if it makes my bike brake better - bring it on.
Posted 3 months ago # -
I agree that neutral services might be troublesome but fitting other wheels at home?? Why. Am I the only MTBer that has several pairs of wheels that get slung in as the whim/going/puncture takes me. Never bother with any fuss.
I would love a pair on my Cotic X but wil have to make do with some Hope V twinsPosted 3 months ago # -
Only a fool, and I mean a fool (stw has far too many niche hoars) would not have hydraulic disc brakes on their bikes why the he'll not should road bikes have all those advantages and NO disadvantages!!
Absolute pish.
One thing I love about the road bike is how smooth, silent and maintainance free it is. Not an experience I've EVER enjoyed with disc brakes, even when running well there's always some rub or drag or squeek or something.
Cue all the usual accusations of not looking after them or being a hamfisted buffoon. So what, I don't need to maintain my Ultegra callipers and they're smooth silent and hassle free. If they're underpowered I've never noticed, and trueing a wobbly wheel is easier than bending a buckled rotor back into shape.
Maybe I'm just getting old, discs on road bikes is just the next marketing ploy after electric gears...
Posted 3 months ago # -
Maybe on a cross bike or a winter/training bike...
So discs on your best road bike that only gets taken out in the dry and cosseted with love, pointless really.
Weight is the other big issue even with a conservative road wheel build being 1500g and calipers at 300g a pair for cheap calipers then to get to a nice light weight there'll need to be some serious weight loss for it to be taken seriously.
For wet weather and loaded use I can se the point for my light best bike er no.
Posted 3 months ago # -
Rik, he's got 10 years on you, andhe's an stw stooge and jewellry cowboy,so he wins.
Anyway, hopefully this will make bake manufacturers make wheel changes easier.
Oh and did anyone else's LOLLERCOPTER take off when they saw this?
• Better aerodynamics – disc/rotor and calliper create a lot of drag.
• Braking power. The biggest friction diameter on a wheel is the rim.
Posted 3 months ago # -
I'm not Biting, I have plenty of experience to know I'm not talking shit. Plus nobody has given a decent response against.
.............
Posted 3 months ago # -
This is good news!
For you and a few other biffer mountain bikers to whom road biking is a sideline. Here's some news for you - you're not the majority of road bike riders. Most roadies have never used a disc brake, and aren't so in love with the spurious advantages.
The only *possible* arguments against road bikes with discs is that the chassis has to be stronger and therefore heavier in some areas (some of which can be recovered with disc specific bikes) and a slight aero dis-advantage.
You seem to have forgotten wheel changes and neutral service, cost, lack of compatibility... apart from that the issues you mention are nowhere near as trivial as you imply - do I need to go on proving you've not actually thought it through properly?
Posted 3 months ago # -
There's no reason for wheel changes to be an issue IMO, if mfrs sort that out.
Roadies are happy as mtbers to spaff £££ on the latest kit..I don't think that would be an issue.
Given you can get disc compatible mtb forks @ 500gm no problem I don't think frame/fork weight/strength is an issue.
BUT...the main benefits of disc brakes are in crap weather, so I don't yet see the benefits for (most roadies) racing,, until the weight comes down, and the pros use them, in which case it will be business as usual.
Posted 3 months ago # -
My dad loves to remind me how Mr Campagnolo once said
I make my bikes to go, not to stop
Wether or not it was Mr Campag that said it, I get where he's coming from. Road bikes are built for pure, unadulterated speed. Making them heavier/more complicated/draggier/noisier/more expensive for the few extra nanoseconds you might gain by braking slightly later into a corner just seems utterly pointless.
Re: experience. I'm a podgy amateur who seeks out the nicest/nastiest hills in Scotland and rides them massively cack-handedly, so technically in the demographic that would benefit from/desire hydraulic discs the most, in fact, I even ride Sportives on a team edition bike WITH MATCHING TEAM TOP! And yet I'd still fit electric gears before I fitted discs...
Posted 3 months ago # -
Great thread....ha ha.
compatability has to be a major issue as aracer and Mrmo say.
i have a number of road bikes and swap wheels between them all the time. imagine the hassle of having to shim up all teh different hubs etc (compared to a 10 second wheel change and a quick tweak of the brake)
The hassle that this would cause on the pro circuit isnt even worth thinking about.
Main advantage for pro's (which almost doesnt apply to all the chippers on here) is that the rims dont heat on long descents and therefore no rolled tubs.
Miguel Indurain raced with hope disks about 10/12 years ago to test them out. Why has no one bothered since. Why have they not been used at Paris - Roubaix, why havent people raced them in non UCI events.
You dont need massive stopping power on road bikes (frankly I find clean pads, clean rims, set up properly are more than adequate for road races / crits)
Posted 3 months ago # -
I make my bikes to go, not to stop
Hmmm...that logic must be right, I mean the fastest cars, like in F1, have rubbish brakes, don't they?
Miguel Indurain raced with hope disks about 10/12 years ago to test them out. Why has no one bothered since. Why have they not been used at Paris - Roubaix, why havent people raced them in non UCI events.
Cos no one is manufacturing them, so no on can make money out of them.
Posted 3 months ago # -
Roadies are happy as mtbers to spaff £££ on the latest kit..I don't think that would be an issue.
roadies spend money to go faster, not to go slower. Have a look at a lot of roadies brake pads and ask how many years they have got out of them? I remember one rider complaining their rims wore out after 8 years, felt they had been short changed.
the way i see it a nice set of carbon 50mm rims or a set of disc brakes, guess where my money is going.
If a buy a new bike and it has discs on it so be it, but i am not going out to buy a set.
Posted 3 months ago # -
Miguel Indurain raced with hope disks about 10/12 years ago to test them out. Why has no one bothered since. Why have they not been used at Paris - Roubaix, why havent people raced them in non UCI events.
Cos no one is manufacturing them, so no on can make money out of them.
my point being that if the best cyclist of the time tries them out and jizzes himself because they are sooooo much better than rim brakes then why the dead air.
A good idea is a good idea is it not ...or another view was that he just didnt see the benefits (if at all)
Posted 3 months ago # -
mrmo I agree road discs probably hahve little advantage for a clubman's summer/race bike (you did read my post?)
MW Indurain "best cyclist of all time"
even if he was (that's a whole other thread or probably forum) he probably said "yes they work better but they're way too heavy"...shimano et all will get the weight down, now there's the UCI weight limit on bikes that's not even relevant.It's not about what any "best cyclist of all time" says, it's what will sell, what the market is ready for etc.
Posted 3 months ago # -
i have a number of road bikes and swap wheels between them all the time. imagine the hassle of having to shim up all teh different hubs etc (compared to a 10 second wheel change and a quick tweak of the brake)
Accurately made this should not be an issue at all. I have run two sets of wheels in an MTB without having to reset the brakes, they don't reset the brakes for wheel changes on racing motorcycles. Just needs the hubs and forks machined accurately in the first place instead of using the slotted mounts to take up manufacturing innacuracies
Posted 3 months ago # -
mrmo I agree road discs probably hahve little advantage for a clubman's summer/race bike (you did read my post?)
I read your post, the way i look at it, summer bikes you spend the money on fancy wheels, winter bikes, you look in the parts bin and use whatever crap you having kicking about.
Neither is a very good starting point for upgrading to discs. Note upgrading, new bikes will come with discs i suspect within a few years, but it is going to take a long time for them to become normal, simply because road upgrade scales are a lot longer than mtb ones.
Posted 3 months ago # -
mrmo - Member
, winter bikes, you look in the parts bin and use whatever crap you having kicking about.I guess I am an anomally - I like to have working brakes, and not to have to replace rims every year. I spend more time on it than my summer bike so I'm happy for it not to be shit.
I get your point re. upgrade cycles being slower for road and specifically winter bikes tho.
My money is on discs being commonplace on road bikes in 5 years.
Posted 3 months ago # -
TJ, not as simple, you have one mtb with two sets of wheels,
Roadie senario, two or three bikes and a similar number of wheel sets, a nice set of carbon race wheels, some alloy training wheels, maybe a set of light climbing wheels, maybe a rear disc for the tt bike.
Your summer race bike and winter training bike will probably have the calliper in slightly different places which means having to play around with shimming the frame and or disc.
Posted 3 months ago # -
If they are all made accurately to the same spec there should be no issue - get the calliper in the sameplace relative to the dropout and the disc relative to the axle - bingo.
It does mean they would not be able to get away with the level of manufacturing accuracy tht especially post mount discs do now.
Posted 3 months ago # -
I guess I am an anomally - I like to have working brakes, and not to have to replace rims every year. I spend more time on it than my summer bike so I'm happy for it not to be shit.
I just bought old stock campag centaur callipers for circa £30, they offer me enough power and control , the rims are currently 4 years old, something i can live with. For comparison i wore out a set of sunset 2(3?)17's in 9 months on an mtb, then went to ceramic rims.
Discs make sense on a mtb simply because rims get trashed so quickly, not so much on the road bike.
Posted 3 months ago # -
cynic-al - Member
mrmo I agree road discs probably hahve little advantage for a clubman's summer/race bike (you did read my post?)MW Indurain "best cyclist of all time" even if he was (that's a whole other thread or probably forum) he probably said "yes they work better but they're way too heavy"...shimano et all will get the weight down, now there's the UCI weight limit on bikes that's not even relevant.
It's not about what any "best cyclist of all time" says, it's what will sell, what the market is ready for etc.
read the post
best cyclist of THE time......not All. (Clearly he isnt because thats Sean Kelly :-))
TJ - different wheels/hubs on different bikes and you expect them all to just drop in and not rub. It doesnt happen in practice. My point being that you can drop any wheel into any frame currently (hence Mavic neutral service)with no problem other than to possibly move the QR on the road brake.
Posted 3 months ago # -
It does mean they would not be able to get away with the level of manufacturing accuracy tht especially post mount discs do now.
Ah, so now we're into "that's not an issue - they just need to solve this little problem"
Posted 3 months ago # -
I don't see the point. I have three MTB's, one with Hope hydralyics absolutly fab, one with V's absolutly fab also and one with canti's, these are cheap and nasty and not fab.
My point is there is nothing worng with rim brakes with the right pads. If I rode a tandam then I can see the point but on a road bike I cannot see the how this would help me at all. I have no trouble stopping even with the cheap pads in my Miche brakes.
Posted 3 months ago # -
There is no technical reason why the location of the components cannot be done accurately enough to get everything interchangeable. Its commonplace in the motorcycle world - no shimming required.
almost all my mtbs are IS mount witout adaptors and every combination I have tried ( between half a dozen bikes) just drops in with no rub.
If you don't want discs fine - but the interchangeability while needing accurate machining is not a dealbreaker.
Posted 3 months ago # -
Interesting thread. I'm not a roadie, but in my years in a bike shop I observed the following hundreds of times....
Roadies are generally massive bling whores, and fickle with. Far more so than mtb'ers. Many roadies will "need" a new bike if they change clubs, so it matches their kit. Or vice versa. Or they "need" shoes to match their bike. Or a bottle to match their bike. Or glasses to match their shoes. Or their helmet must match their bike, or their kit, or both. If their bike came with dura ace then any replacement parts must be dura ace etc, nothing less will work.
There aren't anything like as many mtb'ers running around in assos or rapha esque clothing, and most of us would balk at the idea of spending several thousand pounds on wheels, whilst many roadies consider this expenditure fairly normal.
If a pro wears, rides, eats, embrocates with whatever, they must have it. On the whole if it's shiny and expensive and used by pros they need it.
To say roadies are resistant to change is daft, dramatic technological change just doesnt happen to them that often. Disc brakes will be sold on the basis of braking later and braking less, therefore making you faster and they'll eat it up. Because they have f*ck all clue about bikes other than the colour, the price and the brand name.
Posted 3 months ago # -
Surely one of the reasons for multiple/training/Winter wheels is so that you don't grind away the rims on the good set? Remove rim wear from the equation and it alters the dynamics.
Posted 3 months ago # -
The cable routings on some of the latest TT bikes with concealed brakes can be a bit convoluted, making it difficult to get good brake performance. Concealed hydraulic lines running through the bars and frame eliminate this problem, which is one of the reasons the big manufacturers are interested for top end TT bikes.
For road-racing bikes, I don't think there is such an obvious case for rim or disc hydraulics at the moment. Good quality cable operated rim brakes are very effective, and I think there is still an overall weight penalty for disks and disk forks.
Great option for utility road bikes, however. I have been running Avid road disks on my commuting/touring road bike for around 9 years now, but I would be very interested in switching to a hydraulic option if it was available.
Posted 3 months ago # -
muddyfunster - Member
Interesting thread. I'm not a roadie, but in my years in a bike shop I observed the following hundreds of times....Because they have f*ck all clue about bikes other than the colour, the price and the brand name.
what a knob
Posted 3 months ago # -
Margin Walker
what a knob
I'm a knob am I? well you're and unimaginative knob. If I was a zoo keeper and I'd observed that most chimps like to fling poo, and I said " The majority of chimps like to fling poo" it might not be a popular opinion with chimps, or chimp lovers, but it would be an opinion backed up by experience.
Posted 3 months ago # -
Hmmm...that logic must be right, I mean the fastest cars, like in F1, have rubbish brakes, don't they?
And yet, the cycling equivalent of F1 cars, i.e. TdF bikes, have managed fine on cable actuated callipers for years etc. etc. I don't dispute that good brakes are a good thing, I'm just disputing that a disputable advantage isn't worthwhile if it come with (to my eye) associated disadvantages/costs etc.Roadies are generally massive bling whores, and fickle with.
You know why? Probably because you can assume road bikes will just work, instead of having to labour over which component will actually suffice for you riding style/conditions.Buy a road bike, make it fit. Done. Spend the rest of your time and money trying to look good.
Buy an MTB, change any crappy stock parts that will just break/require endless looking after, then spend the rest of your time upgrading/replacing as stuff wears out or proves itself inadequate. Be thankful if you ever have the time to splash money on sexy kit that looks good.
Posted 3 months ago # -
I'm with muddyfunster, having worked in LBS also - the majority of roadies are not at all technical in the way mtbers are. Margin Walker appears to be the rare exception!
13FM - I too have said the advantages are marginal for pros (bar bad weather riding), it was your implication that crap brakes make you go faster that I was "pointing out".
Posted 3 months ago #
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