Bike Forum
How the dutch got their cyclepaths
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Posted 7 months ago #
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I just blogged that!
Interesting film, a goverment that listened to its people
Posted 7 months ago # -
I got it off facebook from a mutual friend so probably from you
Posted 7 months ago # -
The Dutch, mad as hatters, but in a conformist kind of way...
Posted 7 months ago # -
sadly there will never be the public will to make it happen here
Posted 7 months ago # -
Fascinating stuff.
400 kids killed in a year... you just know that this country still wouldn't act.
Typical cycle paths -
NL:
UK:
Posted 7 months ago # -
I nicked it from Dagmara , shows you how quickly things can spread though
Posted 7 months ago # -
those dutch cycle paths look dull.
thank god for British potholes, glass, burnt-out mopeds, and scallies with air-rifles!
who needs coffee? - i get to work more alert than an alert thing after a refresher seminar on 'how to be alert'.
Posted 7 months ago # -
400 kids killed in a year... you just know that this country still wouldn't act.
Yes we would. But we'd act by banning kids from cycling.
Interesting video; I just sort of assumed that Holland had always been groovy and bike friendly.
Posted 7 months ago # -
thank god for British potholes, glass, burnt-out mopeds, and scallies with air-rifles!
who needs coffee? - i get to work more alert than an alert thing after a refresher seminar on 'how to be alert'
Hahaha. You read my mind!
Posted 7 months ago # -
I believe the dutch always had more cycling than the UK - but from the 70s onwards policy was designed to encourage cycling as usage was declining.
Posted 7 months ago # -
sadly there will never be the public will to make it happen here
I think there could be. I live on the outskirts of a medium sized city and try and avoid driving at all costs. Last time I had to drive across the city centre at rush hour, my average speed was less than 1 mph. Most of my workmates have changed their working hours due to traffic and journey time. Fuel and parking costs are eye-watering, despite the government's efforts to paper over the cracks. Something's gotta give.
Posted 7 months ago # -
A lot of that rings true with what's happening today... overloaded roads, high oil prices etc.
Car Free Sundays - what a great idea though.
Posted 7 months ago # -
Not to mention 2,500 children killed or seriously injured in road accidents last year.
http://www.dft.gov.uk/statistics/releases/reported-road-casualties-gb-main-results-2010
It's OK though, apparently our roads are safer than ever.
Posted 7 months ago # -
A car free Sunday was attempted here in Stavanger a month or so ago.
It was apparently the heaviest car traffic ever recorded in the area. Unfortunately, there was also a bike race (that i did) that finished in the city centre. Because almost every driver ignored the car free directive, the race in to the city centre turned in to a battle with hundreds of irate car drivers. It was a shambles.
Posted 7 months ago # -
I was a bit unsure about some of the Dutch cycle paths as they don't always follow the roads. Great for me as a touring cyclist but having tarmac cycle lanes going through fields seemed to make the countryside a bit less rugged so not so good for ramblers. But maybe they have so little rural space there's not much to spoil?
Posted 7 months ago # -
Having a country so completely flat it's virtually downhill helps with the uptake of cycling.
And the reason they have room for their cycle paths is because they systematically knocked buildings down to expand roadways, something they could afford due to an incredible economic boom.
When the same conditions exist here, it'll happen here.
Posted 7 months ago # -
The same process has happened in Germany, starting in the 80's. now quite an extensive cycle path network, although not up to the standard in the Netherlands. Now virtually every new road includes a separate cycle path alongside, and many more are being build alongside existing roads.
Train stations and tram stops have facilities to lock up bikes, as do supermarkets, public buildings and they are also scattered around town centres. Through summer nearly everyone cycles for some of their journeys, whether that's commuting, popping to the shop for milk or a Sunday morning bimble with the family.
I think that without the political will to create the facilities then the situation would be the same as the UK, Germans do after all love their cars.
Posted 7 months ago # -
the reason they have room for their cycle paths is because they systematically knocked buildings down to expand roadways, something they could afford due to an incredible economic boom.
You think the same thing hasn't happened in the UK? The difference is more in the way streets are laid out, not to mention the way the on-street parking is catered to in the UK like it was a fundamental human right:
http://hembrow.blogspot.com/search/label/notenoughspace
Having a country so completely flat it's virtually downhill helps with the uptake of cycling.
It's not all like that, and even the flat bits have headwinds and reliably sh!te weather. Also from the blog above:
Posted 7 months ago # -
wow.
a 70m climb? (with a maximum gradient of 11%)
hardcore.
Posted 7 months ago # -
Not likely as the government in the UK does not actually want to make any decisions. Fantastic for quality of life though being able to cycle/walk without worrying about cars or other traffic.
Posted 7 months ago # -
Klumpy - even in the mediaeval bits with narrow streets the bikes get provision. Its about how you divide up the space
if there is say 15 m width between buildings here we would have a 2 m pavement, 11 m road, 2 m pavement. In the netherlands you would have 2 m pavement, 2m cycleway, 7 m road, 2 m cycleway 2 m pavement
Posted 7 months ago # -
fascinating.cheers.
Posted 7 months ago # -
I lived in the Netherlands for several years. Provision for cyclists is fantastic there but I have to say that it is all about utilitarian transport and consequently a lot of the riding is really rather dull. Off the cycle paths (they don't go everywhere) the level of tolerance for cyclists by drivers is really not much better than here. The other thing to point out is that the geography of the Netherlands is particularly suited to building a decent network of cycleways. Apart from being flat, a significant proportion of the network is built around the polders and drainage canals. It's an artificial landscape anyway so folk aren't as sensitive to planning decisions and the structure of the canal system really lends itself to overlaying cycle paths. We can certainly learn a lot from the Dutch model but it'd be really difficult to apply in most of the UK.
Posted 7 months ago # -
I live in a Suffolk town where cycling is common place. Not just kids although more of them go to school by bike than anywhere else in the UK but also commuters , shoppers etc. Very rare that someone doesnt own a bicycle.
This is due to the provision of a large network of cycle paths when the housing was built. Its not perfect but well ahead of most places because cycling feels like a safe option.
Posted 7 months ago # -
The other thing to point out is that the geography of the Netherlands is particularly suited to building a decent network of cycleways
Germany has just as much challenging geography as the UK, and have made much much more progress in creating proper cycle paths, its about the political will, nothing to do with geography.
Posted 7 months ago # -
Indeed. Dutch also have a worse climate than the uk for cycling - lots of wind and rain and colder winters.
Its purely policitcs / social pressures.
With the political will we could easily go down the same road
Posted 7 months ago # -
wow.
a 70m climb? (with a maximum gradient of 11%)
hardcore.
You can get between many places in the UK without having to ride up anything steeper. Cycling in the UK is hilly and slow because we use quiet roads or cobbled together cycle paths. In the Netherlands it seems like the paths tend to be built on the same route as main roads, so they're quicker and flatter.
Posted 7 months ago # -
+1 on policitcs / social pressures
Germany is also planning to build new coal burning power plants, as there is plenty coal left,
While here we are trying to cover our hills with inefficient wind turnines I see about half a dozen cyclists a year Commuting here in East lothian (never the same cyclists daily),
Look at the train stations here and lucky if there are a dozon bikes parked, why?,
I get buzzed by lots of big shiney motors going far too fast on hedged country roads when cycling, and a lot of folk say to me that they wont cycle because of this having happend to themselves,
too many folk are just too wrapped in there own lives and selfish to care, guess peoples attitudes need to change here as well,Posted 7 months ago # -
It's an artificial landscape anyway so folk aren't as sensitive to planning decisions
The Dutch blueprint seems to be making cycle routes next to, but separate from, major road routes. These are usually the most direct and the flattest route so it makes sense to send the cycle paths the same way.
If you're making a cycle path next to a major road, who the hell is going to object on aesthetic grounds?
It's lack of will, plus the feeling that all available space needs to be allocated to cars.
I'm pretty sure that at present there is no requirement for UK transport infrastructure to cater to cycles - one simple change at policy level could revolutionise this.
I think they did meet stiff opposition when it came to making town centres car free. Dutch urban planning seems to have quite a "top down" approach which must have helped.
Posted 7 months ago # -
In Wales, the Government is taking forward a Cycling Bill which will make it a legal duty for local authorities to provide cycle routes:
http://www.goinggoingbike.com/blog/welsh-cycling-bill-will-make-it-a-duty-to-provide-routes/
Obviously the devil will be in the detail, but it's an important first step in showing some political will. The more support for this from cyclists the better, as the cultural apathy, or even at times resistance, in the UK towards cycling initiatives is one of the greatest barriers to improvements.
Posted 7 months ago # -
It's not all bad here. The cycle path beside the Cambridge Guided Busway is a thing of beauty that could stand comparison with anything in Holland. It can get very busy around 9am during term time.
Posted 7 months ago # -
The other thing to point out is that the geography of the Netherlands is particularly suited to building a decent network of cycleways
Germany has just as much challenging geography as the UK, and have made much much more progress in creating proper cycle paths, its about the political will, nothing to do with geography.Did you actually read my post? Of course practical / political will is a factor - but it's ridiculous to say that geography, planning sensitivity and more to the point, existing infrastructure isn't a factor. It's far easier and cheaper to run a new cycle path over say a disused railway line or drainage dyke, or alongside a brand new road than it is over virgin countryside or to apply it retrospectively to a city centre built around a pre-Roman model.
Both Holland and Germany took the decision to start afresh when rebuilding after WWII in most of the large population centres and a lot of their large cities were already built on the grid model anyway. This gave them much better opportunities to build an urban infrastructure that could accommodate different modes of transport at a later date. In most cases we took the opposite route and built up everything as it was before (just look at London).
I'm not arguing that it shouldn't happen - I'd love to see it happen here, but I think that we have to be realistic about some of the challenges.
Posted 7 months ago # -
Both Holland and Germany took the decision to start afresh when rebuilding after WWII in most of the large population centres and a lot of their large cities were already built on the grid model anyway. This gave them much better opportunities to build an urban infrastructure that could accommodate different modes of transport at a later date. In most cases we took the opposite route and built up everything as it was before (just look at London).
Holland started building cycleways in the 70's Germany the 80's, German cities have grown just as organicly as UK cities, there is no grid pattern in Darmstadt where I live and work, or Frankfurt just up the road.
Posted 7 months ago # -
I think you're missing the point completely. It's always easy to quote an exception but on the whole, post WWII rebuilding in Europe gave far better opportunities for future provision of mixed mode transport than it did here.
Posted 7 months ago #
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