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how do comparable public / private sector jobs differ?
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Posted 11 months ago #
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I've worked in the public sector for 20 years (NHS, civil service, university, back in the NHS). About a year ago I was approached by a private sector company and offered a job doing similar sort of work at a similar level. The private company was offering about 20% more on the basic salary + company car or £5K car allowance. On the downside I would have lost about 10 days holiday, plus employers pension contributions would have been about 5% of salary instead of 15% (and the private pension would not have been fixed benefits but subject to the vagaries of the markets). I sat down and worked it all out in terms of pay and benefits earned per day worked and they came out about equal. Things like hours worked per week and flexible working practices were also similar. The decider for me was a combination of location and keeping my holidays, so I stayed in the public sector.
Posted 11 months ago # -
+1 in applauding Midnighthour.
Posted 11 months ago # -
+2 Midnighthour.
Really well put!Posted 11 months ago # -
I don't think it is right but,
globalisation seems to mean levelling down, everyone will be shafted as pay and conditions worsen over the next few years.
So while the private sector has been shafted for a good few years and on the whole the public sector hasn't now it is the turn of the public sector. What will it mean, outsourcing, longer hours, worse t&c's etc. Oh and the senior mangers getting more and more money.
All i can say is i was made redundant march last year, having done some temp work and have now got a permanent role, In that time the best paid roles were public sector, Not saying much though, most of the jobs i have seen advertised have been well short of 20k.
But i fail to see how it is in anyones interest to have no money in the economy, which is basically what is happening. Pay for rent, food, fuel and that is it.
Odd how with all the talk of pensions i seem to have missed any mention of MP's and their scheme being revised?
Posted 11 months ago # -
Teachers in any type of school will have a hard time with the kids behaviour if they are crap at teaching their subject.
a huge oversimplification, yes shit teachers are shit but an average teacher can get by with nice kids but would be crucified at a tough inner city school
Posted 11 months ago # -
its nothing to do with globalisation. Public sector jobs cannot be shifted overseas.
Posted 11 months ago # -
Tandem, you are wrong, some public sector jobs can't be shifted i will agree with you on that. A nurse has to be with the patient, a road sweeper where the road is.
But what of the accountant, the IT support, the call centres, etc etc. If you don't have to be in the same physical place as the end user then you can be outsourced and your pay will be at the lowest they can be justified.
Posted 11 months ago # -
Birmingham City Council has just made the decision to outsource some of its IT to India
Posted 11 months ago # -
So while the private sector has been shafted for a good few years and on the whole the public sector hasn't now it is the turn of the public sector.
be clear the bosses /Board in the private sector industries have not been shafted it has been the employees at the bottom. It needs resolving much more urgently than public sector pensions. However the right wing press and the current govt has persuaded folk it is unfair that they have a good pension rather than unfair that you have a piss poor pension. This is the wrong solution to the problem it is like saying I get the minimum wage so you should.
]Posted 11 months ago # -
If you shift everything overseas how does the country survive when nobody has a job?
Posted 11 months ago # -
SbZ, your point is? we live in a global market, there will be jobs but you will have to compete with vietnamese, Indians, etc.
This is my point, and the problem, the country will survive, but when all your money is spent on surviving and not consuming how does a market function?
And when the private workers are earning £5per hour, public servants will face there wages be slashed as the cost will be unaffordable. There will be some with money, the same at the top of the tree now will still be there erecting their fences and employing guards to protect their wealth.
I hope i am wrong by the way, i just don't see any effort by any party to protect people in this country to ensure a reasonable standard of living.
Posted 11 months ago # -
mrmo - completely irrelevant
Posted 11 months ago # -
I think what mrmo is getting at is this whole rolling ball of s**t is turning into a race to the bottom.
Posted 11 months ago # -
The real problem is not public sector pensions, it's crap private sector pensions.
No.
Private companies cannot guarantee that they will still be in existence six months into the future, nor can they legally levy taxes on the entire population to cover any guarantees they make. Private companies can and do fail, leaving their creditors wanting.
As such, private sector pensions have to be fully funded and affordable, at all times. With a good margin for error. Why can some people not grasp this simple concept?
A private company cannot pay its workers whatever they want today, nor can it make silly promises for tomorrow. There is a limited pot. Private companies cannot require 3rd parties to take over and make good any foolish promises they make.
Public sector schemes must also become fully funded. They will do. Whatever unions think.
Posted 11 months ago # -
The fella I feel sorry for is the guy at Birmingham City Council working on regeneration and trying to pursuade companies Brum is a good place to do business. Must have been a tough day when his own organisation made him look like a chump.
Posted 11 months ago # -
not irrelevant Tandem, so far many jobs have gone from the private sector and been sent abroad, it is starting to happen in the public sector. As has been pointed out how can you compare like for like across public and private because in a lot of cases there is no duplication of duty.
Where there could be duplication, ie customer services, back office, alot of this has gone.
And at the end of the day the public sector is paid for by the private sector, you may not like it but driving down costs and keeping wages low in the private sector will force the public sector the same way. The first step is the easy one, drive pensions down, it isn't in your pay today so easier to do.
The few jobs i have seen over the last year job hunting have paid more in the public sector than similar jobs in the private sector, this is admin type work.
Posted 11 months ago # -
dmjb4
What you don't get is they have been reformed and (mostly) have a limit on any taxpayers contributions.
For example the NHS pension fund is in surplus - more is taken in each moth than goes out. this has been the case for decades. this money is used as revenue by the exchequer not invested - so this money has to be paid back by the exchequer in future
No union is saying all reform is off the table - but it must be reasonable and proportionate and not punative
The scandal is crap private sector pensions that the taxpayer will have to pick up the tab for in benefits. Private companies should be made to make reasonable pension provision. If it applies to all companies there is no competitive disadvantage to them in doing so.
Posted 11 months ago # -
TJ - I thought the NHS scheme had a rather large deficit, not a surplus as you suggest? The telegraph reported a £165B black hole only 2 years ago...
Posted 11 months ago # -
Thats the lies and propaganda. The surplus is a current surplus. More money is paid in in contributions than is paid out now. that report a theoretical worst case scenario in the future. If everyone lives to 100+ taking their pensions and no increase in contributions - of course what that doesn't say is the scheme has been revised to stop this happening
The current surplus is used as revenue by the exchequer as its a revenue scheme - this money is not invested. Thus if there is a deficit in the future the government has to make it good as it has not saved or invested the current surplus.
Posted 11 months ago # -
Thus if there is a deficit in the future the
governmenttax payer has to make it good as it has not saved or invested the current surplus.Fixed that for you.
Posted 11 months ago # -
[TJ - in fact that the current NHS pension scheme is not a "fund", payments go into general treasury revenues, and current and future payments out of the same, unlike a hypothecated pension "fund". The NHS Scheme is, by definition, "unfunded"
The fact that the scheme is currently in suplus is irrelevant This has occurred because increasing staff numbers have generated higher total employer contributions, leading to the current net cash surplus but giving rise to higher future pension obligations - which stand at about 287 billion quid total liabilities. The only ways for the NHS scheme to remain in "surplus" into the future are for the NHS headcount to continue to grow exponentially, for the contributions in per head to rise, or the benefits out to reduce.
Simple economics! Look upon it as similar to the First law of Thermodynamics.
Posted 11 months ago # -
The surplus is a current surplus. More money is paid in in contributions than is paid out now
So what! The actual issue is whether the people currently contributing are contributing enough to cover future payments.
Posted 11 months ago # -
There are some very gullible people on here who believe tory lies and propaganda as the truth
I feel rather sorry for you
The NHS pension fund has been reformed
those liabilities are over many decades and are a tiny % of GDP ie very easily affordable.
Reduce the pensions and benefit payments will have to be made instead - the average NHS pension is hardly enough to take people oput of benefits as it is.
dmjb4
I suggest you actually read up on how the NHS scheme works and apply a little scepticism to the tory propaganda you accept so willingly
Posted 11 months ago # -
There are some very gullible people on here who believe tory lies and propaganda as the truth
I feel rather sorry for you
Why does everyone who disagrees with you have to be a tory?
I feel sorry for the blinkered.Posted 11 months ago # -
TJ - there are currently 1.3million active NHS pension scheme members, there are about half a million deferred members, and there are about 650k pensioners in payment at the moment.
Can you not see, that in the future, the NHS scheme will have to find enough money to pay for nearly three times as many people as are currently being paid - the fact its currently in surplus is completely and utterly irrelevant!
I suggest you actually read up on how the NHS scheme works
Actually TJ - it might be worth you taking your own advice, since you've claimed above that there is an NHS pension fund!
tiny % of GDP
Oh, you can tell what future GDP is now can you TJ? I mean, after all, you are aware that UKGDP can fall as well as rise?
Posted 11 months ago # -
those liabilities are over many decades
That is exactly the problem. We've had the maths discussion on another thread. No one is actually arguing to simply reduce public sector pensions - we are simply saying that the current promises are unfunded and unaffordable. Either they must become funded (i.e. defined contribution) or the contributions must rise massively to reflect the promises and the cost of the implicit guarantee provided by the Govt OR, yes, the pension terms must be reduced.
Do you know how much the cost of a guarantee takes from the returns on such a bond or equity fund?
Posted 11 months ago # -
dmjb4 - Member
No one is actually arguing to simply reduce public sector pensions -
Yes you arewe are simply saying that the current promises are unfunded and unaffordable.
No they are not. You need to stop believing the propagandaPosted 11 months ago # -
Interesting thread but very few close comparisons to get anything meaningful from.
Can't say I've got much to add but I do work in the private sector (IT consultancy) and have recently been trying to recruit a couple of mid-level server analysts and it's a bit of an eye-opener when you get people applying from the public sector. They're usually much more experienced and seeking a lower wage however that experience is usually in out-dated technology or very specific (not in demand) areas and they don't have certs to back it up with. I get that the public sector likely don't fund much training/certification but if you want to move on you need to take some personal responsibility.
That said most of the people applying from the private sector were jokers to (inexperienced yet asking for top whack pay). The only CVs I was impressed with were from Indians over here on Tier 1 visas, they all seem to have relevant experience, good certs and realistic pay demands...
Posted 11 months ago # -
Interesting thread but very few close comparisons to get anything meaningful from.
Yup. Plenty banging their drums but they've not committed to the original question, rather they've gone on again about we should have our pensions effected.
Posted 11 months ago # -
Back to the original post
I was NHS. left to go to the private sector for a similar job, technical. Result was
- nearly £10k wage boost
- company car
- company phone
- lost around 5 days/year holidays
- out of pension fund and had to make own arrangements
- conditions of work changed without consulatation
- worked on a saturday to help company move premises, paid in pizza and beer
- overtime paid as money (when it was for clients), time off in lieu not allowed
- did a couple of courses, got certified
- paid an on-call allowanceLeft that job, frelanced for a while then found myself going back in to the NHS,
- about the same wasges as the private sector, but now as a manager with several staff
- project management work as well
- responsibility for £Million project
- got my 5 days holidays back
- no paid overtime, it's time off in lieu
- no certification on courses (and not many external courses)
- back in NHS pension
- not paid for out of hours work or on-call, but as the machinery I'm responsible for impacts directly on patent care, I am contactable (using my personal mobile) and will do what I canSo, the money's worse in the public sector, but the conditions were better. I suspect that may be changing though.
Posted 11 months ago # -
I see that's pretty much how it is, the public sector have very good terms and conditions. These are under threat so if we loose those and have lower wagers then it's not as nice balance.
Posted 11 months ago # -
No they are not. You need to stop believing the propaganda
NHS fund about 2 billion in the black, I understand, all paid for by current employees and surplus will be being used by the government. By my reckoning that makes it the very opposite of unfunded and unaffordable.
Posted 11 months ago # -
You need to stop believing the propaganda
Right back at ya!
Posted 11 months ago #
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