Evening,

looking for some help/advice.

Back riding after a long break and need a new bike. Riding is mostly UK Trail centers with some routes in the Peaks. I prefer technical riding when possible and want a bike that’s responsive and will get up and down most things well.

Ok so I’ve for some reason got my eyes on a couple of bikes.

1. Cotic Soul, with a decent build, i.e. 120 fox forks, marta sl’s front and rear, DTSwiss etc.

2. 2011 Orange 5 Pro.

I suppose I need to test both but looking for advice before.

Will the Soul do everything the Orange will do?

What will do what better?

Will both bikes be good enough for the toughest Uk Trial centers?

probably very boring but could do with some advice.

cheers

Both will be fine, you need to do a test ride on them. No one else can really tell you which is best for you.

Trial centers

Do you mean court? If so, I suspect you probably want a nice suit and a good lawyer, although either of these bikes might help you.

OK, starting with the bleedin’ obvious, these are two very different bikes, and they are going to do two quite different things well. The Soul will be lighter, probably climb better on smoother stuff, but riding rougher terrain even on the flat is going to be more like hard work. The 5 is going to be heavier, but much better in the rear suspension area – on account of having any – so will be better on the downs and the trickier terrain.

So you have to ask yourself what kind of riding you want to do – are you more into the downhill and blasting down stuff as fast as possible, or do you prefer picking a line for best traction and minimal maintenance?

You can do everything on a 5 that you can on a soul.
Including trail centres.

Ooops (now fixed, thanks) 😳

Thanks for the replies. I suppose I prefer picking lines and playing on the more technical tight stuff.

I know both will ride very different as one obviously has rear suspension but will the hardtail still be capable on rocky downhill section’s and steep rocky uphill? I know the Orange will be the smoother ride on the rough stuff but will the Soul still do a decent job?

Would like to get both but only one budget.
cheers

want to be able to do bunnyhop backflips? Get the 5

want to be able to ride Fort Bill with your eyes closed? Get the 5.

want to have sex with Pippa Middleton? Get the 5.

want completely biased opinions on bikes, often from people who haven’t ridden them? Ask on STW.

want to find the best bike for you before you spend thousands of pounds? demo some bikes.

😀

My only bike is a Cotic Soul with a 130 fork. I ride it everywhere, and on multi-day trips to the Lakes, 7 Stanes, Peak etc when my mates have their big bikes (Trek Remedy, Oranges, Hecklers etc) I reckon I have more fun on the big rocky descents that they do.

I can singlespeed it too. Get one would be my recommendation.

fair play, will be trying both but thought I would ask to see if anyone had experience with similar?

I reckon I have more fun on the big rocky descents that they do.

How do you work that out then?

Any bike is only as good as the person on it. The question is, which bike are you right for? Not the other way round.

I reckon I have more fun on the big rocky descents that they do.

How do you work that out then?

Because I have to work harder to get the right lines and hold it all together so it’s more of a challenge. They have to go faster to experience the same feeling so a) it’s over a lot sooner and b) they crash faster too.

Get both! but if you have to choose, go with the full suspension one, more comfortable so riding is fun for longer.

my blog

After a brief spell over winter going back to just hardtails (charge blender/cotic soul) i found it fine for a while but then started missing the pure speed and grip of the full suss so i’ve ended up with both.
Plus i found it to be quite hard on the body riding rough trails for prolonged periods on the hardtail if i’m honest, i can ride my hardtail everywhere the full suss goes fwiw. I currently own a Pitch for more full on stuff and the soul as my all rounder, both have their pros and cons but if i was forced into just owning one bike i’d strike a balance between the 2 and go for a decent 120mm trail bike, something like a Trance or maybe a Specialized Camber.

I found it took real silliness before my Soul started to feel like it wasn’t the right bike. Innerleithen DH, Fort William world cup route, stuff like that. For those things the Five would be more appropriate.

The rest of the time, it’s just personal preference.

thanks everyone for replies. A great help.

Now does anyone know when the bike shops start selling old stock to make way for the new 2012 models? 😀

Northwind – Member

I found it took real silliness before my Soul started to feel like it wasn’t the right bike. Innerleithen DH, Fort William world cup route, stuff like that. For those things the Five would be more appropriate.

The rest of the time, it’s just personal preference.

why did you get rid of the soul then? (sorry – no idea why its quoted you in caps)

Now does anyone know when the bike shops start selling old stock to make way for the new 2012 models?

Probably not terribly relevant if you’re looking at the 5 and Soul. I think you save about 50p of last year’s Oranges, and I’ve never seen an offer on a Soul, as they don’t change them very often.

I ended up with a Cotic having gone all round the houses with 4 and 5″ full sussers and longer travel hardtails, but that’s because it suits my riding and my usual terrain. It’s still happy in Wales or the Lakes with bigger tyres and wider bars though.

If I were you I think I’d probably split the difference and go for a lightish 120mm full susser, which would be a better compromise if you’re unsure – or shop and swap in the classifieds for a bit until you’re sure you know what you want.

Another vote for both.

The 5 is still a do it all bike so will have everything covered including anything in europe.

The Soul with also do most riding but sometimes with more efficiency and sometimes slower.

One thing the full sus allows you to do is just sit down and pedal at the end of a long day in the peaks.

I wouldn’t limit yourself to just looking at one FS…. unless you have already done all the researching and testing?

If you havent and have only ridden hardtails before I would get out riding as many different FS’ers as you can get your hands on. Personally for me I dont like Orange 5’s but many do.

The other thing is I went from hardtail to 5″ FS. If I’m honest the bike probably has more capability downhill than I have and I think thats a trap alot of people fall in to.

IMO FS climb technical uphills better than any HT.

Just get out an ride as many FS’ers as you can get our hands on!

Also think about maintenance – A full sus will cost more to upkeep, with servicing of the rear shock and replacement of bushings/bearings etc. Hardtail is cost free in this area.

Another thing is frame life – Alu frames have a certain frame life before they start to weaken, and eventually crack. Steel frames don’t have such a problem, as the steel tends to bend rather than crack. Although it can rust, which the alu can’t.

My personal opinion is a hardtail is more than capable of the majority of the riding the UK offers.

If you enjoy technical riding and like that aspect of it then the soul will probably be more enjoyable on most of the stuff you ride, if you bought a 5, i would imagine you would need to be riding much harder terrain to get the same kick so to speak.. for non DH uk riding the soul wins every time. Plus it will probably be welded straight where the orange is a wonky old gate..

“Alu frames have a certain frame life before they start to weaken, and eventually crack. Steel frames don’t have such a problem, as the steel tends to bend rather than crack. Although it can rust, which the alu can’t.”

That will explain why all the Aluminium aeroplanes keep falling out of the sky! Ok Ally fatigues but that will be way beyond the lifetime of a frame, however some cheaper Ally frames do feel like they loose their stiffness.

Good point about extra maintenance costs of FS.

some people slag them off but a decent suspension seatpost takes a lot of the edge of the harshness off a HT…

I can only repeat what has previously been said above. You can do it all on the HT, and have great fun and work harder, but you’ll tire more on the longer descents. FS will be more forgiving and allow you to go at the same speeds for longer. However, they do have a cost, and that is maintenance, espcially when used over winter.

I recently built a HT to try and avoid the maintenance expenses of my FS and here are my findings:
http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/1st-ride-on-my-new-ht

Interestingly both my FS and HT weigh exactly the same with similar XT/hope components (26.2lbs)
If I were to choose 1, then it would be the FS.

That will explain why all the Aluminium aeroplanes keep falling out of the sky! Ok Ally fatigues but that will be way beyond the lifetime of a frame, however some cheaper Ally frames do feel like they loose their stiffness.

Aeroplanes are made of a far higher grade aluminium, and also do not suffer the same impact absorption as a mountain bike. Not exactly an ideal comparison. Aluminium deteriorates when stress is placed upon it until it gets to a point where eventually it will crack. This mostly happens at weld points as, unlike steel, aluminium welding does not increase in strength.

As you mentioned, higher grade alu can bear greater strengths than the cheaper stuff – but still has a limited life span.

These are quite an interesting set of videos from Cy at Cotic about the pro’s and con’s of both materials and why they favour steel:

http://thisisheffield.co.uk/2011/cotic-lectures-cy-turner-from-cotic-on-bike-design/

I kind of had a similar choice to you. I had a patriot LT and a Bfe and have ended up just with the Bfe. Mostly ride trail centres and local trails. The orange just squashed everything to the extent that I would have to act really stupid just to make it interesting. Some might prefer that, I don’t, so now I ride everything on the Cotic, planning to ride the DH runs at Cmwcarn next week…all day…my legs will give out before anything else.

I would be faster on the orange but just enjoy the Cotic more

Never ridden a 5 but do have a Soul, with 120 fox forks which is an awesome ride. Im not technically brilliant, and i find a hardtail does have limitations at times. However have just purchased a Specialized Camber which has boosted my riding a bit more and given me the confidence to try tricky stuff, and it is more comfortable when hammering rocky/rooty stuff. Both bikes really enjoyable. Try as many as you can before buying.

FS if your trails are very rocky. HT if they’re not.

Fairly simple 🙂

Re Alu lifetime – not an issue really. It might be 15 years, but you almost certainly won’t have the bike then anyway.

It can crack if you punish it a lot, but then so can steel.

FSes often cost more but a 5 is about the lowest maintenance FS there is – one set of big bearings that last years and are a very simple job to fix.

Have you ridden a full susser much? I think a lot of this decision comes down to personal tastes and your riding style.

I assumed full sussers were not for me back in the 90’s when I was first into mtb as I am a light rider in the XC mould and was more interested in making my Ti hardtail as light as possible. But I tested a Heckler (classic – v similar to Superlight) and was amazed at the lack of bob and ordered one then and there (98).

I have never looked back. I still have my Ti hardtail but it only gets used on roads or in uber-bogggy conditions (when tbh I rarely bother). I far prefer the feeling of full-suss in pretty much any off road conditions. A light full susser with a decent suspension design will give you a lot of help up and down hill. Personally I sit down and spin a lot – which makes it so black and white for me – and I am more interested in speed on the downhills than most XC-style riders. Soemtimes I ride the hardtail and appreciate how it makes me choose my lines more carefully but I hate clattering over any rough stuff- whatever the fork the rear will always punish you.

My perfect bike setup now (assuming I can never have just one bike…) would be a trail-oriented bike with 120-140 at both ends and a lightish build, for summer/trail centre/holiday in Europe use, plus a winter full suss which would be single pivot and with more basic kit on it. Which is pretty much what I have, except the hardtail is still loafing about annoying my wife. Probably worth nothing (pre-disc mount).

Regarding maintenance – the Heckler I had before, and the Superlight I have now, go for years and years (8 was the record) on the same bearings, pivots, and shock bushes. Depends how much you ride and how often in mud, but full suss does not necessarily mean lots of maintenance. My Blur was a bit more of a hassle to sort (changed all the bearings/pivots and shock when I bought the frame SH in 09, and had to grind down one pivot, but now expect it to give 3 years or so).

fair play, will be trying both but thought I would ask to see if anyone had experience with similar?

I have an On-One Inbred with Rockshox Reba SL forks and an Orange 5 Pro. I use the Inbred for easier terrain round my local country parks where I do the majority of my weekly training rides and the Orange for the Peaks, Surrey Hills, trail centres, etc.

Funnily enough I was on the Inbred in the Surrey Hills yesterday because I was letting a friend demo the Orange. He enjoyed the whole day but I was pretty beaten up by the end of it and wishing I was on the Orange.

Roblilly

…so now I ride everything on the Cotic, planning to ride the DH runs at Cmwcarn next week…all day…my legs will give out before anything else.

Brave man 🙂

Thanks everyone for replies and info.

Going to have a demo on both and decide. I wanted to make sure that apart from my ability that both bikes would perform well in the type of environments I will be riding and looks like apart from fitness, how comfy I want the ride to be that both should get up and down and tackle most UK riding without problems?

I will update when I’ve made the decision 😕

Cheers
😯 🙂

rudedog – Member

why did you get rid of the soul then? (sorry – no idea why its quoted you in caps)

Purely because of the silly stuff… Soul was/is still probably the best allround hardtail I’ve ridden but I didn’t want such an allrounder in the end.

tackle most UK riding without problems?

Of course they will!

That’s like asking if a Ford Mondeo or a VW Golf GTI will tackle most roads in the UK without problems. You’re never going to get stuck, but they are a slightly different driving experience that’s all.

docrobster – Member

You can do everything on a 5 hardtail that you can on a soul FS.
Including trail centres.

fixed!