“throwing any toys out of any prams”

Getting personal and implying that frustrated riders are babies/immature, won’t help us as a group either.

ihn

+1 from me

That wasn’t my intention, apologies if that’s how it came across.

I meant as a group, if we expect them to understand our position we need to understand theirs too. And also understand that, if an agreement is the objective, we will probably not get agreed access to everything we currently have.

I agree that what has been offered is too little, so the current excellent work being done by Roger et al needs to continue, as does the collective discipline and restraint being shown by the riding community. We’ll only convince them that we can control ourselves post-agreement if prove that we can control ourselves now.

Roger – you made a comment last night about getting your life back. If you want any ‘hands-on’ help in the negotiations etc, I’m happy to do what I can.

IHN
I will be putting out a summary statement soon about our current stance / future actions. Watch this space. It was Mike Purnell from Bigfoot who was doing a superb job of fronting the debate last night and did a far better job than me as I am better at “behind the scenes” type work. We have had several offers of assistance and should we need some we will of course let riders know. For now I feel that a compact rep group is needed in front of landowners / NE etc. Superb turnout of about 80 last night, and most were riders. Very mature debate and well behaved. Well done all. All good things come to those who wait – just hope the wait is going to be short.

i understand their position, but i also understand the wider picture that they are missing, the riders exist, if you ban them from places it puts more pressure onto other spots, such as leckhampton hill.

The best solution is to look at the wider picture and try and spread the load.

If what is being outlined is the best offer then….

Ah, sorry, I got there late (thought it started at 8, oops) and thought you were the standing up and talking chap.

Anyway, the offer stands.

Hi all,
As Roger said – thanks all for the great turnout last night, for the support, suggestions and opinions. Give us a couple of days to gather our thoughts and attempt to sum up everything we heard in a response back to NE.

Oh and I’ll also be doing some riding this weekend in an attempt to get away from all this – in South Wales, not Cranham I hasten to add.

Wherever you’re riding, have a good one.

Hi i thought it was a good meeting.Reading between the lines i think the NE guy is using the same idea on the Tysons land for the Buckholt wood which may not apply.
No one has had a chance to ask the lady owner of Buckholt wood if she does or doesnt mind?.The previous owner of the Shine was happy that the wood was being used.
If they can give us the wall why not the rest???????.
Also i wonder if the NE guy has the authority to say cyclists can use a footpath?sure the ramblers association would have something to say about this.ITS ALL A MINE FIELD.Happy Riding.Good work by the boys out front.Hope they dont get caught in there if its a no no 🙄

If the NE guy is the owners agent then he is perfectly in his rights to dictate terms.

As for use of a footpath, no issue, as long as the landowner doesn’t mind you can drive on a footpath if you want. Only issue is racing bikes on bridleways which is a no no, even with permission.

A little light reading if anyone wants to read a bit more about the SSSI units. Unit 12 is the one we were discussing last night.
EWGS = English Woodlands Grant Scheme which I guess = public money.

you weren’t thinking that this was natural woodland that was being protected were you?

Ah well 🙁

Just some quick points for all to note.
79 attended the meeting with representation from several clubs / groups, individual riders, retailers, residents, the local grazier and the Chairman of Cranham Common Management Committee.
We are putting together a comprehensive response to NE / landowner of Buckholt Wood and will post this up here when finalised. The proposal made by the landowner was rejected by at the meeting. It was agreed that as we have got this far we would pursue further negotiation until Easter only. Beyond that we would look at pulling out of discussions. SO…. please can we try and stay away from the area until Easter – four weeks time. Again, this is to demonstrate the co-operation of the local riding ciommunity and their support for us to try and reach a settlement.
Thanks as ever for your support and amazing to see such a great turn out last night and listen to very mature and responsible debate.
Cheers. Roger.

Please see below a copy og the formal response sent to Natural England tonight. We have also requested a meeting on site to actually walk some of the trails on March 23rd.

What happened at the public meeting at the Royal William on 08/03/12
Representatives of Cheltenham & County Cycling Club and Bigfoot Mountain Biking Club presented the trail access offer made by the owner of Buckholt Woods (made via Natural England and the owner’s forestry manager) to the wider cycling community.

We had an excellent turnout – around 80 people, with a good mix of club riders, unaffiliated riders, local Cranham residents (riders and non-riders) and a local farmer. Around two thirds of the people there were unaffiliated with CC-CC or Bigfoot.

We also very much welcomed the presence and contributions of Mark Crowther (chair of Cranham Common Management Committee), who is keen for us all to reach an amicable and workable agreement.

As you might expect we had a wide range of opinions, ideas and suggestions expressed, but the very clear message was that the cycling community could not accept the current Buckholt Woods offer of wide shared use bridleway/leisure rider type trails, plus the Wall singletrack trail.

Given the wide and continuing use of the area by walkers and horses, the cycling community feels somewhat victimised for what it considers to be a worthwhile, low impact leisure pursuit. Although they are aware of the importance of the Beech woods, they do not believe their activities have a negative impact and do not understand why such a big issue is being made of the levels of riding around Cranham.

They asked us to continue discussions with Natural England, but on a strictly time-limited basis. The cycling community has given us another month to sort this out (up to Easter), then they will start to ride the area again. We should expect some increases in riding in the area between now and then anyway – although we were supported by the vast majority, we do not expect complete compliance.

What we would like to happen next
We would like to work with Natural England, the forestry manager and the owner to find a workable solution to cycling in Buckholt Woods.

Given the established and stable network of singletracks in Buckholt Woods, we need to establish managed use of a viable end to end singletrack route plus the established singletrack loops on our map.

Although the majority of cyclists at the meeting were what we would categorise as XC/singletrack riders, there were also people there who are interested in more relaxed leisure cycling. They are also keen to establish permitted use of bridleway type trails, so we mustn’t forget them.

It was clear that attempting to force all woodland users onto the same ground was felt to be undesirable.

What we can offer in return
We believe we can ‘nudge’ the cycling community with an extensive and effective communications network – via cycling clubs, internet forums, shops, email distribution groups. We would use this to manage and vary trail use and behaviours now and in the future. We believe what’s happened over the last few months demonstrates this.

Experience elsewhere indicates that trail blockages, whether deliberate or as a side effect of forestry operations, simply result in the trails moving. The cycling doesn’t stop.

There are local precedents for amicable agreements, for example Leckhampton Hill.

We feel that access to the wider trail network will beneficially distribute riders around the area, rather than concentrating them on a very small number of trails. We do not expect overall traffic levels to increase, but with an agreement and working lines of communication in place we believe the situation can be managed.

A couple of examples:

– Where seasonal or temporary variations need to be made, for example during forestry operations

– Where the precise route of trails needs to be modified

– Although this area is out of scope for this discussion, a local variation of the Shrine trail to avoid the West Tump. This was raised by CCMC as a particular bone of contention for local residents that could have been worked on if the necessary liaison existed.

We would draw up a code of conduct so that all cyclists know what is expected of them. This would include recognition that we do not have exclusive use of any trail – for example if a cyclist finds a horse or walker on the trail, even singletrack, they must be courteous and considerate.

We would not allow the construction of jumps or the unauthorised creation of new trails.

Although we don’t think we’ll be entering into a legal agreement, we can say that CC-CC and Bigfoot riders have appropriate third party insurance in place, as this is a requirement for club membership.

We could limit the size of club groups.

Next steps
We would welcome the opportunity to continue discussions via Natural England, including a more detailed onsite walk of some of the trails.

Roger, is there a map of the area split into land ownership? Just interested to see who owns what. Also, is there a map of your proposed route overlayed by the NE proposal?

Dimmadan,
We are dealing with the landowner of the largest area we ride, Buckholt Wood, a Mrs Birchall. The Tysons own Buckle Wood East of Buckholt, the area of the Shrine etc. The proposed route they offered is close to where we ride in some places, but the bridleway type tracks, not necessarily our singletrack which can be only metres away. Also some of our best technical singletrack routes have not been considered by them at this stage, something we are insisting happens.
Anyway, NE have come back to us very quickly and are keen to meet us very soon. We are trying to organise a meeting in the woods this week or early next week. We feel that they “may” still be misunderstanding us and demonstrating the minimal impact of our tracks during a meeting might help.

Hi

Just came across this post, I cycle through the area on my commute to work (generally spring to early Winter) between Cheltenham and Quedgley. Noticed the recent message at LL Cheltenham but was too late to attend the meeting. More than happy to help if required, would love to be able to keep using the woods.

Tim

I’ve been riding up there over the last 11yrs and have kept to my part of the deal not riding up there since first seeing this thread, maybe a tad before.

Speaking to Ryan @ LL other day seemed as though the 2 blokes setting traps and other obstacles round that way come from Brockworth but what I’m more interested in is the fact have they been caught or not by Police yet or atleast questioned over their peculiar stunts?

Atleast glad to hear that there was a good turn out and that N.E. need to sort out quicker imo as there’s absolutely no way that cyclists in the woods is going to impact on the long term conservation of the woodland imo.
Hell it brings business to the local pubs which surely must be on side?

anyway enough is enough sooner or later and I’ll be up there again but until I hear a bit more back from you guys then is Pope’s wood alright to ride?

To me it’s typical Cotswold snobby BS which is a let’s make it tough for the lower types just for the sake of it.

To me it’s typical Cotswold snobby BS which is a let’s make it tough for the lower types just for the sake of it.

I have to say, that’s not my impression of the problem in this case. more a case of new landowner worried about their liability for damage to a SSSI.

Plus, it’s important to remember that there’s never been a right of access to the stuff in the woods, we’ve simply been lucky that the previous owner(s) didn’t mind.

Good luck with the meeting with NE Roger, I’m sure calm common sense can come to a reasonable solution.

Oh yes, definitely so but there is a certain amount of BS too to add into the mix.

I live not far from Cranham and the locals seem alright at the pub atleast but not had a problem when seeing owner’s of the Sawmill (not sure what their names are).

Do NE actually know what they’re talking about though, re “nature” and conservation? I base this on my extensive knowledge of watching one programme on the telly, where the NE bods were castigating that fella that owned Honister slate mine over his paths / via ferrata. As I recall the conversation went something along the lines of:

NE bod: This flora has been here since the last ice age and you’re damaging it irreperably, it’ll take tens of thousands of years to recover

Honister bloke: This ground was cut by miners about a hundred years ago

Not sure if that helps, but it certainly coloured my view of the “expertise” that NE bring the the debate…

To be honest we have done well in Cranham for the last 22 years.All those trails were built on private land.sooner or later someone was going to kick up a fuss.

Will keep riding them tho.

Will keep riding them tho.

+1

Spent an hour and a half with our NE contact walking our trail this afternoon. Good exchange of our desires and NEs requirements. Not forgetting the landowners in all this. Good progress made I feel. We are starting to get into the nitty gritty of negotiation now I feel. Still some work to do but I am more confident of an agreement that suits all than only a few days ago. I will update via this forum and email contacts as soon as I can. Keep the faith. And yes NE do know what they are doing and we must respect this.

thought you were a bit quiet yesterday – once again thank you for your work chap!

OT when did that bl00dy great fence turn up at the top of lecky! 😯 that was unexpected in the dark!

That sounds promising Roger, keep up the good work.

v666ern, for info the fence is because the dexters are going to be roaming over the hill rather than kept in little paddocks. So be aware of small black cows in the dark.

😆 wish id known that last night!

v666ern.
Leckhampton Hill is my other “land access” hat that I wear. I’m the rider rep that sits in from of FOLK and the landowner Cheltenham Borough Council. All works very well and we hope to replicate this type of relationship with Cranham landowners / NE etc. Happy to put you on my email contact list for Leckhampton Hill if you like?? We also have a yahoo group called Lecky MTB that is supported by Cheltenham & County CC for the benefit of local riders. Prefer not to dilute this Cranham discussion with Leckhampton ones if we can help it. Cheers.

Roger,

Can you add me to the lecky email list please, BTW i was the chap with the metallica t-shirt at the meeting and i think i met you at bushy a while back digging

all the best

only just picked up on this post, I lived in Whiteway for most of my life but now live in the Wirral. I am coming back soon for a short stay to see my parents who still live in Whiteway and intend to bring my bike.
I was hoping to put in some miles around Cranham, am I still able to do this? and if so does anyone have a GPX route they could send me?

If you’re coming down before Easter, stay clear of Cranham. We’re keeping off whilst discussions with the land owner and NE progress.

After Easter, well, who knows…

Cheers, will stay away and go to the forest instead.

The Forest is amazing now.Best its ever been.So much to choose from.Does your parents sell campers in Whiteway?
Few gates up lecky too spoils the climb up sandy lane now you have to stop 😥

No mate but I know who you mean, on the right just as you enter the village coming from the fostons ash, I think his name is Viv Wilkings if memory serves me correct.

I was only joking.there seems to be 2 lots of campers there these days.Often pass there doing road rides from Cheltenham.Nice spot.There is a BIG Plastic Parrot by the road dont know what that is about up on a hedge.

I know him lol, just as you go down the hill. He conned everyone in the village when he arived by telling them he was a antiques dealer, turns out he deals in bric a brac 😆

Thats a good one!!!!!!!!!!!maybe its a big antique parrot :lol:Not very Cotswolds WHAT.I like it.

Viv has a daughter called Jo who is now married to Duncan and have a son called James!!!!!!!!