I’m very aware people have strong opinions on gearbox drivetrains… but:

What would make you buy one?
What would you give up for zero-maintenance (or near-zero)

IF there was a gearbox drivetrain that:
– Weighed less than a derailleur system
– Shifted as well as (or nearly as well as) a derailleur system
– Had a decent trigger shifter
– Fitted on your current bike

Would you buy it? How much efficiency would you give up? How much shift quality would you give up?

Let the discussion begin!
(N.B. please no trolls, I’m hoping for a decent reasonable discussion)

IF there was a gearbox drivetrain that Had a decent trigger shifter Would you buy it?

Yes.

IF there was a gearbox drivetrain that:
– Weighed less than a derailleur system
– Shifted as well as (or nearly as well as) a derailleur system
– Had a decent trigger shifter

it weighs less…well I never cracked that one

I don’t like triggers. the alfine comes with a trigger and shifts almost as well as a dérailleur , I changed it to a nexus twistgrip. Rohloff is only a small amount heavier than a 3×9 drivetrain and has greater range than a 1×11

IGH also have other advantages. shifting when stationary, never a dropped chain, silent in use ( apart from a whine in the lowest 7 gears), longevity and believe it or not cheapness. for me the rohloff has paid for itself by now in reduced drivetrain costs. rings and chains last longer and replacement is a chanring and a sprocket and chain.

I love them.

The rohloff shifting is perfect in use but feels horrid. thats a small price to pay for its advantages

Buy me a Deviate and I’ll tell you in a month.

You don’t notice the rohloff weight and I guess the drag on a tandem. But on a regular bike it drags and is heavy/kills the ride of the bike by its point mass.

I have had mine on 3 bikes and it now lives on my fatty where I can live with its downsides.

For me the shift would have to be smoother -its very clunky.

The weight would need to be less or more spread about the bike

And it should not drag – and I don’t care how many tests you present in a riding comparison on the same bike set up there is noticeable drag between a we’ll set up 3*9xtr system and the rohloff… Now wether it’s system drag or the fact the wheels hanging up more due to the high mass concentration it is slower.

I want to like them. Hence why I bought one….I’ve had an Alfine.8..it dragged even more. My strumey 3 speeds are the least draggy but achieve that at expense of sealing

Aye the shift on a rohloff feels awful. Never misses a shift but its feel is horrid.

My alfine is not draggy at all – but it is degreased and runs on an oil bath and has done a lot of miles. the Rohloff is still running in and is getting more free but it does feel a little draggy. I think tho they feel worse than they are. something to do with the takeup? epicyclics will always have some drag tho but a perfect chainline helps reduce the overall drag

Its not for racers but its great for touring.

It’d have to be within a couple of percent on drag for me.

Not really a lover or hater – just have no interest in gearboxes at all, or rather can’t see why some people get so excited about them.

My Alfine was as God designed and it’s draggy I can see how oil bath helps.

Yeah if I was doing some silly tour it would take alot for me to look past my rohloff (which is well run in and has had several flushes and oil changes over the years )

But they are not the magic bullet some would have you to believe

To get me to buy one you’d have to make it have much less drag and also give me a shitload of cash.

If I had the latter I’d probably get a gearbox hardtail with an enclosed chain – always wanted a mudproof bike.

how do the pinion gearboxes compare in the draggy stakes?

Bikeradar thought subjectively it was much less draggy than Rohloff. They had this picture of it:

Which makes it look like that it’s just two gears being used and not a planetary system, which should really help with drag. Of course there aren’t any gears meshing in a derailleur system…

I remember being in a bike museum somewhere in France and they had a bike there with a hub with two gears where you pedalled backwards to engage the lower gear for going up hills. Seemed inspired 🙂

Liked the idea of the Deviate until i read their marketing

…and saw the price as well of course

Still like the look of the Pinion, just can’t think of a good reason to get one. The nice thing about derailleurs is that if anything goes wrong on a ride you can just singlespeed it. However I can’t imagine anything ever going wrong with these systems, they just look too solid

I tried a pinion on a taniwha and decided against it because:-

The lag in the gearbox freehub was 30°. Way too much to allow me to clock the cranks for the technical riding I like to do.

The pull/pull cable doesn’t index in the shifter and while it never missed a shift, it felt vague.

I didn’t like the twist shifter.

The lag in the gearbox freehub was 30°.

What to you mean by lag – like if you have been freewheeling before the cranks will engage again? That sounds horrible compared to modern freewheels

Yep the time between moving and engaging on rohloff is somewhat urgh. But I’ve learned to live with it.

Molgrips – the rohloff pays for itself in lower drivetrain replacement parts over maybe 10 000 miles. Instead of 3 chainrings and a cassettte and chain ever couple of thousand miles its a chain every few thousand miles and a chainring and sprioket every second chain. chains last longer as they are not sideloaded and can be worn much further with no adverse effects on shift. I think I am into profit now on the tandem

I don’t notice that trailrat at all. the alfine is “soft” on takeup tho. I shall go and check how many degrees to take up on both

What would make me buy one?
Having enough money.
Needing a new bike.

I test rode the zerode and got one well with it.
Maybe a bit of drag.
Twist shift I can live with along with learning how the box shifts, which didn’t take long.

In short if I can afford it my next bike will have a pinion gearbox.

My Alfine 8 eventually stopped being draggy, but that was about two thirds of the way through its life span lol (greased, not oil)

Rohloff is about 2-3 times the slack compared to my pro 2 hub about 10 or 15 degrees at a guess between engagement points. Not something I ever notice tho

Its definitely advantages and disadvantages. I have a dérailleur on my good light MTB and will keep it but the alfine is on my winter mtb / commuter and the rohloff on the tandem

Advantages with the rohloff are shifting when stationary, never drop a chain, no chain slap, never miss a shift, able to go from top to bottom gear with one twist and vastly improved drivetrain life. dérailleur is crisper shifting, better weight distribution and maybe a bit less weight overall depending what is replacing and more efficient

But over all the key thing to me is the rohloff is indestructible on the tandem. No other hub is. Its guaranteed for life and if it breaks rohloff will send you a new hub free of charge anywhere in the world. Previously we just mashed hubs. the only other hub worth having on a tandem is the chris king tandem special – very rare and expensive.

I’d have a zerode if they could get the price down to sub £3k for a full bike.
It looks like a perfect bike for me and my hamfisted mechanical skills.

Edit: what would I sacrifice for that? Probably if it weighed up to 33-35lbs would seem a reasonable weight penalty for the gearbox. Reckon I could cope with the gripshift.

the rohloff pays for itself in lower drivetrain replacement parts over maybe 10 000 miles

Not bothered by that. And who the hell replaces all three chainrings when they do their chain and block? I change a little ring every two or three years (but now I’ve got a steel one) and all my middle and big rings are from 2007!

My point is molgrips is that over the years its a cost saving overall.

The cash comment was because to buy a new bike I’d need a pile of cash right now. I can’t offset the cost against the next ten years 🙂

Quick question regarding the benefit of changing gear whilst stationary. Do you ever get caught out when riding a bike with regular gearing? Can you change gear whilst pedaling or do the cranks need to be still?

I would pay more for a gearbox bike than I would for a derailleur equipped bike, because I’d expect the gearbox to last longer, also chain/ring/sprocket lasts longer so will eventually be cheaper to run.
In a perfect world, there would be a range of shifters available, trigger/twistgrip/dropbar/barend.
Im not convinced that a small amount of drag matters that much (for me)..
My mate has an alfine 11 equipped bike, if you spin the rear wheel there is obvious drag compared to my cx bike (dmr revolver rear hub), but it doesn’t seem to make any difference in the real world.
If one was available that retrofitted a bike with a standard bb, then yes, id consider it.

Pronounced pressure off to shift more so than derraileurs but not stationary cranks

Static shifting …. If you get caught out is good. Again can see benifit a on tandem or tourer can take it or leave it on my mtb

Quick question regarding the benefit of changing gear whilst stationary. Do you ever get caught out when riding a bike with regular gearing?

Yes. I only have one bike left with dérailleurs and it takes a while to adapt. I often try to shift when stationary and / or stop in a high gear / shift when coasting to a halt. takes a while to get used to it again. I do love the crisp shifting tho

My alfine 8 freewheels as easily as a front wheel – its when pedalling it drags especially in the lowest or top gear. If his alfine drags when frewheeeling something is wrong. Nothing is engaged when freewheeling

It’s a very small amount of drag tj, you would never notice it riding, its only when you spin the rear up and let it run down that you can see it.
He took it back to the shop he bought it from, the owner is a big fan of igh and has had several of his own, he reckons that my mates one rolls better than the majority of alfine 11s.
Also, its worth noting that it’s done less than a thousand miles, my hubs have done several times that.
Also worth noting, it wouldn’t put me off buying one.

For me the biggest downside (linked to cost) is the fact they’re integral to the frame. I rarely keep frames long enough to justify that kind of outlay. At least with hub gears the wheels can move between bike frames as I change/upgrade.

I’m a real fan of hub gears for certain bikes (winter/rigid/hack/commute) but can’t see me ever getting a gearbox.

I remember being in a bike museum somewhere in France and they had a bike there with a hub with two gears where you pedalled backwards to engage the lower gear for going up hills

The Sturmey Archer S2 Duomatic is currently available and does exactly that and for just £60. It does however weight 1KG

IF there was a gearbox drivetrain that:
– Weighed less than a derailleur system
– Shifted as well as (or nearly as well as) a derailleur system
– Had a decent trigger shifter
– Fitted on your current bike

Would you buy it? How much efficiency would you give up? How much shift quality would you give up?

Biking and efficiency is crucial.
Road biking: I would hate to give up ANY efficiency. No idea about the numbers. But 3 % less efficiency would be really bad.

MTB: guess 3 % less efficiency would be still o.k.. Shift quality shouldn’t suffer – or even should be better.

Maybe if rich enough it would be a bike specifically for filthy conditions. I wonder what other design features it could have, if custom made? Nice stable position and perfect balance for those sliding moments would be important.

martymac – If one was available that retrofitted a bike with a standard bb, then yes, id consider it.

This makes no sense, what you’re saying is you’d consider a poorly designed, highly compromised version but not a good one.

What you should be saying is, wouldnt it be good if all frames came with a gyneric bb / gearbox mounting system so you could choose to run whatever drive system you wanted.

Olsen bikes http://olsenbicycles.com are leading the way with that in some respects… Pinion as standard but with the option to run a threaded BB.

Oh and as some one with a singlespeed and an alfine and is lazy, I’d happily have a gearbox and I’d especially like the wife’s bike to have one.

3% inefficiency on the bike is nothing compared to the inefficiency of my body.

3% inefficiency on the bike is nothing compared to the inefficiency of my body.

Absolutely right.
But, problem: our sensors are so good and our power output so low that we right away feel if the bike has 3% more friction…

Not sure about the numbers, but with road biking: 3 % worse would kill this option for a race biker!

martymac – Member

It’s a very small amount of drag tj, you would never notice it riding, its only when you spin the rear up and let it run down that you can see it.
He took it back to the shop he bought it from, the owner is a big fan of igh and has had several of his own, he reckons that my mates one rolls better than the majority of alfine 11s.

I guess the 11 has tighter seals than the 8 I am used to given its an oil bath not grease as standard.
Certainly on the 8 none of the internals are engaged when freewheeling so there is no extra drag

Went to IGH in 2003 with a Rohloff to avoid wear and tear issues from local clay/grinding paste.

Currently have
2 x alfine 8
2 x alfine 11
3 x Rohloffs

I have previously outlined the benefits and the bombproofness of the Rohloff and my only criticism and it’s minor, is the weight at the back wheel, which you do accommodate too over time.

However I’ve had a Pinion on a Nicolai for just over 12 months and I would rate it as good as the Rohloff but with the advantage of having the weight centred.

The sooner someone can get these down to a more wallet friendly price the better, for your average mountain bike person the advantages are just too good for vertualy no functional compromise, except if you must have trigger shifters.
As an aside the Nicolai frame with Pinion worked as cheap a as a frame and Rohloff purchase I made back in 2009:-)

I see the future for Mtb’s where frames all come with a standard interface for your choice of gearbox with choices from 2-3 gearbox manufacturer’s. Although this would probably create another standards frenzy.
Would be surprised if Shimano weren’t working on something with their experience around the Alfine.