There is no doubt that the Alpine was once again an inspired design by Mike Dialled. A really good example of steep seat/slack head. Bravo.

Have you already ruled out a 456? Not the same as either the Cotic or the Ragley but another great allrounder and much cheaper. The odds that your first ever mtb frame will be your last are approximately a billion to one so it might not be a bad idea to dip your toe in the water with a cheaper option.

Nope, haven't ruled it out. But I don't want to buy it just because it's cheap. Since the frame isn't that big of a part of the cost of the build, but it is important, I'd rather get something that's right rather than save a few squid. This is not to say that the 456 isn't better than a Pig or BFe — would you say it's better, ignoring the cost?

Too right, it climbs nicely and the position you sit in right over the bb means you seem to be able to get loads of power down, seems like a really good place to sit for pedalling efficiency.

Only problem I got was when my seat was up high for xc, you noticed the bb felt dead high

I even managed a couple of half poor tables on mine

Steel for that little extra give,

Not read the entire thread but I doubt you'll get much "give" on either of those frames, neither is light enough (ton is in a different of folk who weight tons).

Also if you are genuine about never having been off road I'd suggest you get something similar to what your mates ride, it will take time to get confident riding and you may be better sticking with something "known"…also these bikes are heavy, you may prefer a light xc thing as your first mtb. You're not going to be pinning tabletops in your first ride etc

I doubt you'll get much "give" on either of those frames, neither is light enough

Is there no comfort advantage to steel in these kinds of frames? There must be some…
If not, and aluminium's lighter, why would anyone buy them?

these frames are not built for light weight – light steel frames are generally zingy and comfortable, alloy ones can be, at the heavier end I don't think feel is a priority.

We chose a 32mm top tube diameter on the Pig, with an externally butted section at the head tube for strength.

38mm downtube keeps the BB Tidy.

Nice.

stop talking about blue pig's….it is making me want another one……….. 😉

Still don't get it cynic-al.

If the advantage of aluminium over steel is weight and stiffness, what is the advantage of steel over aluminium?

Okay, it's probably easier to work, and the tubes can have a smaller diameter. Got that. But there must be something in it for the rider as well, even at the burly end of the market. If not comfort, then what?

I reckon is a bit comfier, but when you start using thick gauge oversized stays (like a BFe or Trailstar) it definitely isnt comfy.

I guess alot of it is down to the tube profile.

Steel is just far better cos its stronger and lasts forever

steel is deffo comfier than alloy……..
it can be repaired easier
it bends rather than snaps without warning.

i like steel.

So whydiddja keep the mmmmbop? 😀

cos i am a serial bike swapper………………..fact.

yeah tony whats the mmmbop got over the pig (and what have they both got over the 456 ?)

Steel for that little extra give,

Not read the entire thread but I doubt you'll get much "give" on either of those frames, neither is light enough (ton is in a different of folk who weight tons).

Also if you are genuine about never having been off road I'd suggest you get something similar to what your mates ride, it will take time to get confident riding and you may be better sticking with something "known"…also these bikes are heavy, you may prefer a light xc thing as your first mtb. You're not going to be pinning tabletops in your first ride etc

Gotta disagree with you there cynic-al
As I have already said I have been riding an old school Bonty for 16yrs, they do not come much more skinnier and zingier than that.
The Pig on the other hand is stiff, but a good stiff, in all the right places. My first ride was in the Peaks which is hugely different from my usual stomping ground around the Stanes and Lakes, got on with it straight away hence I had no hesitation in buying a frame there and then. I had planned to test a P7, Genesis, Charge and various other new style steel hardtails.
The pig was just ace.
Given the bling that theye is fitting to any frame he gets the Pig will be anything but heavy. I was riding with a mate the other week who rides a 26lb Heckler and he struggled to keep up 😆

In what way would a newbie have difficulty riding one? Nothing to gauge his experience on therefore should be able to ride it no problem.

As for riding in the alps I rode my first full sus bike when in Verbier. Never riden a Kona Coiler or any of the trails and managed to keep up fine 😈 Wieght aint everything ❗

Another reason I like the Pig is the looks. There are no add-on bits like seat/chainstay braces to prevent the frame folding, no top tube/seat tube braces to stop them parting company etc. Granted it does look a bit odd having that big girder holding the head/top and down tubes together but I prefer that to some of the other gusseting solutions that move loads to other areas where bikes break(handjobs spring to mind)

sounds wonderful.

mick, the mm bop suits my 150mm forks, and they are both a bit more refined than the 456, which is made from lead lined gaspipe……… 😉

Fair enough trekster just going on my experience of heavier HT's.

theeye I am not convinced you've been a bike enthusiast for 15 years if you don't know the pros and cons of steel v alu.

cheers tony i thought they were both rated for the same forks for some reason . its nice gaspipe tho and you knows it 😉

Fair enough trekster just going on my experience of heavier HT's.

Cheers Al
There is no doubt that older heavy frames may not have been very efficient but I feel the Pig manages to put the power down whenever it is needed. I have been climbing hills in the middle ring that I used to drop into granny 🙂
Running some cheap 130 Marz Bombers btw and a 70mm stem courtesy of a Saracen ❗

Must go and weigh mine out of curiosity 😯

my new h/tail is pretty hefty……..but fun…

For me, top tube diameter and section has always been key in a bike's ride. Hence the skinny top tube diameters and great rides on the early inbreds.

"squish" to me, never occured because of rear triangle design, though i could argue that the on-one welded wishbone was laterally stiffer – but vertically? stiff – sure – but stiffer than a 'normal' triangle? It's a triangle! they're triangulated in lots of planes – how can they flex???

for me, squish comes about from the wheels spreading under load. And the major defining characteristic there is top tube section.

with the blue pigs, I specced a 32mm top tube, with a thicker, flared, externally butted top tube to give the head tube area strength.

we then used a bigger than normal (38mm) downtube, to keep the frame tracking straight, add BB stiffness, and then put a box gusset to spread the load from the down tube to the top tube to help us with the tough CEN test.

result? great ride quality, but with massive headtube strength for impact and fatigue.

Great spot Trekster!

Trying to decode Brant's last post… So keeping the Pig's toptube skinnier in the back allows a bit of "give", making the ride more comfortable, and the flare towards the front means that the headtube is staying attached to the frame. I think I have it.

So the steel Pig should be more comfortable than, say, an alu Stiffee, but both can rip down the mountain.
Which is what I thought, but cynic-al confused me.

cynic-al:

theeye I am not convinced you've been a bike enthusiast for 15 years if you don't know the pros and cons of steel v alu

Easy there, rider, no need to get snippy.

Enthusiast? Didn't say I was. Said I stayed on the road.
To and from work every day on my old-ass commuter, which was also my only mode of transport around London for many years. All, may I point out, on the road.

Great thread. Where else can you post asking for help deciding between two bikes and have both the designers weigh in with their opinions?

I don't have much to add, other than agreeing with the guy who dared to say you should go full-sus – and to suggest that if you're set on a steel hardtail, you might want to look at the Genesis Alpitude if you haven't already.

ton – Member

stop talking about blue pig's….it is making me want another one………..

Sorry mate – you're not having your old one back – I'm enjoying it too much. 🙂

Chameleon.

The Chameleon is alu, no?
Sounds unforgiving…

The Alpitude is really nice, it's true… I looked at it a couple weeks ago, but discounted it for some reason, can't remember why. Probably something someone said on a forum somewhere, which of course should be taken with a grain of salt. But the Pig and BFe really had stellar reviews all the way through. Should take another look… But may not have the strength… aaaargh!

Yeah, full suspension…
My brain says full suss. My heart says hardtail. The dual suspension seems so technical and engineered and… well, vulgar, really… Probably will be sorry after, with my back in pieces, and it's a completely emotional decision, but there you go.

Transition Trans Am is another to check out

It's not unforgiving if you know what tyres and post and saddle. You want stiff, light, direct? Then Chameleon.

i'm too pissed to relpy a proper answer but what Brant said, yeah! Its fookin great!

Sounds like a Cove stiffee would be a good bet for you. Alloy frame though. But steel versus alloy for comfort is not such a big deal that people would have you believe! As said above when you start using thick tubes for long travel forks, the steel is real thing falls flat on its arse. I have had a Genesis and its not forgiving!

Or as said before a 456 offers what the others have but at a cheaper price. The stiffee offers a bit more class over BFe or Blue Pigs if you are going to spend more money IMO

buy something popular on here so you can sell it easy enough when you dont ride it more than twice.

Damn.
Was hoping for more clarity, but am getting more confused.

Almost bought an ex-demo stiffee a couple of weeks ago, comparable setup to what I'm thinking about for the Pig, but started thinking about steel being softer. The stiffee would have cost a grand, and to build up a new Pig I'm looking at around 1,500.

Now I'm hearing steel doesn't make much difference on bikes like these. Aaaaaaaargh!

And thanks for the advice SOOBalias! Not thinking that way now, obviously.

Go back tomorrow morning and buy the Stiffee for a grand! Job done and dusted. Save 500 quid and have a far more classy bike! Ride bike and enjoy!

PS clarity is one thing you can be certain of not ascertaining on here!

Theyeye wrote,

"Nope, haven't ruled it out. But I don't want to buy it just because it's cheap."

456s aren't just cheap, they're cheap and very good- they'd be worth buying at twice the price IMO. They're also a relatively middle-of-the-road, versatile frame, which is definately an advantage in your position. I'm not sure I'd buy one now but when I was still figuring out what I wanted from a mountain bike something like that would have been perfect.

How about getting a frame of each and trying them both if money aint a great issue? Whichever you don't like sell on the classifieds 🙂

I love my Soul and am keen (when I have a secure job) to get a BFe because I love the geometry.

Definately go Hardtail though – Full Sus is great but does make you lazy.

I ain't about the material per-se. It's about what the designer does with it. HT now for the skills, FS in 2 years. Everyone needs two mountain bikes anyway. BTW if you're keeping up with FSers, you'll need a good fork.

Anyway, whichever bike you get you'll probably love it – because you won't know any different and you'll be riding in fabulous mountain terrain.

Brant — sorry to be a pain, but I'm a bit confused with people saying that in these kinds of bikes steel doesn't have any comfort advantage over alu… If that's so, I still don't understand why anyone would buy steel.

It would be really great if you could explain in plain english what the Pig has over the mmmbop on the trail…

I understand that the mmmbop has weight, wider choice of forks with the bigger headtube (since you can throw in 1.125 as well as 1.5), and a bigger seatpost…