Viewing 34 posts - 1 through 34 (of 34 total)
  • Epiphany Vs 5 Spot Horst Link
  • haggis1978
    Full Member

    So i have a HL 5 spot and i’m in the process of buying an Epiphany and was looking for the opinions of people who have had or ridden both. I normally ride a hardtail and got the 5 spot only a month or 2 ago and absolutely love it. I can absolutely nail it across some crazy terrain and it just flies. Then i came across an Epiphany in the for sale section and thought ooops that’ll be a big credit card bill this month then 🙄 These are my top 2 dream full sus bikes with the Epiphany just pipping the 5spot at present but was looking as i said for people who have owned both for their opinions on the differences as they are quite similar bikes

    mooman
    Free Member

    epiphany much better looking, climbs better and descends superbly. Had choice of the Turner – so glad i chose ellsworth.

    Hadge
    Free Member

    I own a 5 Spot and I nearly bought an Epiphany but having already owned a Spot previously I went for what I knew and what I liked. The Spot can be built up a bit more beffier than the Epiphany, which is known to suffer from a bit of flex and so most people build them up on the light side – XC’ish. My mates got one so I’ll see if I can beg a go on his to see how it goes (hey up Tony!). To me I’d see the Epiphany being a real fast XC mile muncher, along with the newer Yeti 575 whereas the 5 Spot is one that can handle some of the more “all-mountain” stuff. Just my opinion though ok.

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    haggis1978
    Full Member

    I should actually be in ownership of these bike both at the same time so will be doing comparisons myself but aside from saying they both go fast as f&*k and handle really well i can’t see myself being able to be as definitive as one of the magazine testers would in saying “yes this bike is better than that one”. i can say i like the idea of the fast xc mile muncher as i’m not really big on all mountain stuff ie i’m crap at jumps and hence sure the epiphany will handle anything i can throw at it. So is it the general consensus that the Epiphany is the mile muncher of the 2 without taking build differences into acount as they will be both built quite similarly?

    Hadge
    Free Member

    There’s very little to choose with any of the boutique brands and it will come down to which floats your boat more I guess. I had a 5.5 Intense and 5 Spot at the same time and both are superb bikes. But living with them long term I found the 5.5 needed constant maintenance on it’s bearings to keep it running sweet – nothing bad but compared to the Turner it was more work. Both rode very well, climbed well and descended well but I sold both and bought a Yeti 575 – the 08 model in the hope it had the best bits of both of the fore-mentioned bikes. But it didn’t, even though it was a good bike in it’s own right. I sold it due to an injury which thankfully has got better and so when I looked for a decent full-susser again I went for the one I liked the best – the Turner.
    If I was buying the Epiphany I’d go down the light XC build – nice light wheels etc and I know it would be round the 25lb mark and would make a superb fast XC bike. I’m not saying the 5 Spot couldn’t be built like that but I remember having a lot of fun on mine when it had a nice coil shock and coil forks – plush as hell and very very sure footed.

    cynic-al
    Free Member

    Heckler

    markgraylish
    Free Member

    Ask this question on either the Turner or Ellsworth forums on mtbr.com and get flamed! 😉

    mooman
    Free Member

    run mine with 150mm fox forks…..never noticed the rumoured flex though??

    tazzymtb
    Full Member

    my Epi is a conservative lightweight (ish) Xc build with 140mm fox forks stans ztr wheels etc.. and is 25lb with 2.25 rubber and a smidge over 24lbs with it’s summer lightweight treads on. Having owned rather a lot of boingly bikes with different suspension designs the Ellsworth is my favorite ride.

    NorthCountryBoy
    Free Member

    Hi have owned both. Had a horst 5 spot sold it and bought an epi.

    Have since sold the epi and bought DW link 5 spot.

    Someone asked the same question a few months ago, this is what I said….

    Hi BigChris I may be able to help! Did you want to buy a new frame or pre loved? I used to ride a Turner 5 spot (horst link) I really loved it. They are very reliable. The bushing last really well if lubed regularly and are pretty simple to change at home. The ride feels solid and very little flex (the bushes are quite wide) Climbed well was fitted with an RP 23 shock, decended good fox talas 32 fork. I sold it and bought an Ellsworth epiphany. Its nice it feels more modern, it feels lighter it climbs a bit better (fox rp3) and decends as well. But it does feel that little bit more flexy. I guess there has to be a trade off between the weight & strength somewhere. Some of the suspension pivot bearings are quite small, and can wear out in a season if riden regularly.
    In conclusion the ellsworth is great, but I really miss the Turner, I would love to try the new DW link version. I weigh about 80KG by the way. So maybe the Turner would suit you better.

    martinxyz
    Free Member

    Ive had both.
    turner geometry is a better ride when you start riding to yer max.
    the 70 degree head angle on the epiphany is super pinpoint but when you want to start taking it as far as you had taken the turner.. it gets a bit skittish up front at speed (with same fork).
    a horst turner wont flow as freely on its bushings (remove the shock and feel the diff between them) as well as the bearings in the epiph.ive had a good few turners apart and know how sticky some can be even from new. the ellsworth,like just about any bearing setup in any frame,has virtually no stiction.nothing fighting against yer shocks function – a good thang.
    unlike the turner, the ellsworth will not develop wear in the stays/pivot points. a turner should always be stripped and checked for wear even when theres no play in the bushes. quite often you will come across a set of stays with wear from the top-hats that has gouged into the non-replaceable contact points.it takes no time at all to check this every so often so no excuses.. but for those that like to just pump grease in and only strip it when play develops, you might be in for a shock.it can happen.some more so than others.you wont get that with the epiphany.

    both bikes descend well but the turner beats the epiph. it gives you confidence like you have just had 6 months of techy downhill training handed to you in an instant! depending on what bike you will be coming from.. it could easily be the same for you.there wont be many frames out there much better, if at all.

    climbing.. the epiphany is a better climber.it might not be as stiff at the rear end but the way it functions seems to make it a livelier feeling bike on the ups (even with the same shocks)

    the 5 spot is a stiffer frame but where you would expect this to be an advantage.. its no always the case.it might all help in keeping the turner rock solid whilst descending but ellsworth have the bike dialled in to still make it a better climber.

    the build and finish of the epiphany beats* the turner.. the welds,the rockers machining,the etching instead of stickers,the hardware used for the pivots.turners headtube badge is nicer mind you.

    *The build of the frame isnt always about what it looks like on the outside. the amount of failures with ellsworth isis and truth frames compared to turner failures was a big diff.truths were failing quite often. you asked about a horst 5 spot and going back to that era, they were as strong as they get.hardly any problems at all.
    you asked about the epiphany though, and my one was/is spot on with no cracks. compared to the build of earlier ellsworths its looking good. I have never gone on a search to find out how epiphany owners have been getting on crack-wise so i wouldnt know. know one or two people with them and so far,i havent heard of or seen a failure.

    it would be good to know if anyone else has had any issues with them.

    ChunkyMTB
    Free Member

    Go for the HL Spot. Stiffer, better geo and the company will back you up. Unlike Tony Ellsworth who has the worst name in the industry. I’ve dealt with him over several issues I had with a new Moment frame and it wasn’t pleasant. I moved on from Ellsworth thankfully.

    NorthCountryBoy
    Free Member

    Hi I would tend to agree with martinxyz on what he has said regarding the climbing versus descending capabilities of horst link 5 spot / epi. Personally i think I enjoy the decents more so will trade a little in the climbing stakes. I recon the new DW has the decending ability of the old spot plus the climbing ability of the epi, so all good. But then I would say that as i own one!

    Had a good think about it last night and i remeber with the spot I never fiddled with it. Set shock pressure occasionally and that was it it always felt good, its real sweet spot was high speed cornering it sort of sat into the travel a little and felt really solid and predictable.

    With the epi I found I was always adjusting things trying to make it feel right in all situations. It either was stiff for climbs but then lacked a bit of small bump sensitivity or when set up soft it lost its sharp climbing ability. Perhaps I was just trying to make it feel like a Turner! I am not saying in any way it was a bad bike. It wasnt, it was a very good bike. I had no reliability issues (the mag rocker had been changed FOC for a ally version). It was super light the finish was superb.
    But the $1000 question, I think I prefered the turner as an overall package.

    anc
    Free Member

    Ellsworth have changed there ways, I’ve just had a Epiphany front triangle replaced because of a crack on the seattube. The bike was 3.5 years old and a good year and a half out of warranty. They Donald@ellsworth and Paul/Jim@freeborn were very very helpful and sorted me a new 2010 front end. Whilst the front end wasn’t totally free it was done at a very minimal cost just like Turner do. So still happy customer despite this issue. So I’m afaid the Ellsworth have poor CS arguement don’t hold up anymore IMO.

    Northcountryboy you know Epi’s are d fastest!! :mrgreen:

    haggis1978
    Full Member

    all sounds good in respect to the Turner apart from the issue with wear around the bushings and the same goes for the Epiphany and its cracks and poor customer service. Very informative posts guys thanks. So what happens if the Spot developes wear in and around the bushings? is this a warranty claim or am i looking for a rear triangle? How long is the warranty on turner frames? it was mentioned either earlier or in another post that the warranty travels with the bike not the owner.

    anc
    Free Member

    With the Turner you can get new bushes which are easily replaced. If you get a crack in your Horst Link Turner you’ve got a problem as its 2 models old and I know they don’t have the parts in the common sizes anymore. They will try to help you if they can.

    NorthCountryBoy
    Free Member

    Cheers ANC, if you fancy a spin out on the DW spot let me know you can have a go and then make an informed decision on what really is fastest! 8)
    Did you ever own a spot?

    markgraylish
    Free Member

    Unlike Tony Ellsworth who has the worst name in the industry. I’ve dealt with him over several issues I had with a new Moment frame and it wasn’t pleasant. I moved on from Ellsworth thankfully.

    Really? I don’t want to get into argument here but here is my experience:

    I bought an Ellsworth Truth* in ~2002. I rode it hard and fast – I’m 14st and would regularly take it over the highest, roughest Lake District passes and round huge rough loops in the Scottish highlands and the Peak Districts. It was taken on holiday to the Pyrennes, Colorado, Utah and BC. Anyway, I broke the front triangle after about 15 months and it was replaced under warranty without quibble by Freeborn.

    About a year and half later, I broke the chain stay and that was replaced without quibble (though I did have to pay 100GBP for a new seat stay as the new chain stay design was not compatible with the old seat stay).

    I then moved to Vancouver Canada and took the Truth out on some North Shore trails. Well, 2 years later the inevitable happened and the front triangle broke again. I started looking around for a new bike as I was convinced Ellsworth wouldn’t replace the bike this time but I thought I’d give them a call and see what happens. So I called the company in California direct as there is no local dealer here. They asked for the frame serial number and a photograph of the frame. I e-mailed them some photos and 3 days later got a reply asking where I’d like a replacement front triangle sent to! This was about 6 years after I bought the original bike!

    No matter what anyone else’s experiences, I cannot conceive of better customer service! (Frankly, I was expecting that they wouldn’t replace it the second time and I’d have the excuse to get a different bike as the Truth is just about the most impractical FS bike to ride on the North Shore due to it’s incredibly steep head angle)

    *For those that don’t know, the Truth is Ellsworth’s light weight xc/race bike. Frame and shock weights are something like 5½lb so this is no heavy freeride monster!

    haggis1978
    Full Member

    anybody got any further information about the wear to the stays caused by the bushing top hats? ie would this be covered by a warranty? this i have to say is putting me right off my 5 Spot. i like things that can mostly be fitted and forgotten about and something that can possibly wreck a frame is not good in my mind

    Turnerfan1
    Free Member

    I haven’t heard of problems with frames wearing out! Only good views in my mind.I have a 2004 5 Spot and only grease the ports from time to time.Did send it back to Turner in 2009 for a repaint and they replaced the bushings anyhow and didn’t describe any problems with the frame at all! Check the mtbr Turner forum for views on anything Turner related.As far as i am aware they are pretty trouble free bikes!
    Thanx Max

    Scienceofficer
    Free Member

    Mark graylish – So what you’re saying is that in 5 years, the truth broke three times, with some regularity? 😕

    My HL 5spot has had a similar life and only just cracked at the chainstay.

    Read into that what you will. In terms of reputation, your experiences of Ellsworth warranty are not the norm (based only on years of stw and mtbr dwelling :oops:) and are at the sort of level of turner.

    It seems only a lucky few have been looked after that well by Ellsworth.

    Turner Bushings – They can rotate in the frame – this is a symptom of mis-matched tolerances of the pivot components. Its happened to me once and is usually solved by completely degreasing the pivot socket in the frame and the bush, and trying a pivot axle from one of the other pivots. At a push, a little weak threadlock will sort it out.

    IME its not a terribly difficult thing to solve. I’d rather work on that than bearings.

    IME the life of the bearings is dependent upon regular greasing, therefore, the grease gun IMO is needed from day one. Its a very simple thing to give a squirt of grease every couple of weeks.

    My current bushes have been in the frame for nearly 4 years based on this regime, and theres only very slight wear.

    anc
    Free Member

    Scienceofficer a truth and a fivespot are not really comparable are they, ones a x country racer the others a allmountain beast. Depends what your doing with them. All bikes break if pushed hard enough… Look at the alarming incidence of the 2009 DW spot cracking!! Turner obviously realised this was a issue and beefed it up in the area that let’s go. Good for them and if you have a issue with your 09 Turner will sort it no questions asked. Ellsworth have admitted cs wasn’t up to scratch in the past and have brought in Donald to sort this, in my opinion he was more than fair with me. Paul at freeborn is very helpful also and will go beyond the call of duty to sort you quickly..
    Haggis if you keep on top of your bushes you’ll be fine its a quality bike. But as I said they won’t be able to warrant your stays if you have a problem with them as they don’t have any horst link ones left.

    Nick might just take you up on that offer if your about. You can try mine with the new front end its definitely stiffer than the old triangle. You getting out this wednesday?

    Neil

    slowrider
    Free Member

    I’d say to describe the epiphany as a mile muncher would be underselling it. It certainly does that stuff well but there’s so much more to it. I had one the first year they came out when id only been back into biking about 6 months. It transformed my riding, no word of a lie. I always liked razzing singletrack but that bike gave me such a thirst for pushing faster and harder over all terrain, just so playful and encouraging. A year later when I snapped it I couldn’t complain as my riding had progressed to beyond what the bike was designed for; drops, jumps etc. I wouldn’t buy one again because it’s no longer the bike for me but if you want a fast, fun, confidence inspiring bike to blast xc then IMO it can’t be beat.

    It does actually munch miles pretty well too though.

    AlexSimon
    Full Member

    What the hell! – all these frames snapping!

    anc
    Free Member

    Probably more a reflection on the type of rider buying these frames rather than the actual manufacturer. Just to balance things I’ve also had two Oranges snap on me and one Specialized, for me its part of mountain biking especially here in the Lakes as most of the stuff is rocky. Infact I think the only bike that hasn’t let go on me over the years is my faithful old Fat Chance which is flipping indestructible!!

    Also like anything on the internet you really only here about stuff when people have problems. For every cracked one you hear about they’ll be hundreds out there absolutely fine.

    kaiser
    Free Member

    anybody got any further information about the wear to the stays caused by the bushing top hats

    I’m no expert but do own and maintain an 05 HL turner.
    I think that it’s highly unlikely that you wouldn’t feel any play in the pivots if the bushes were badly worn ..so the problem would be apparent without dismantling. however I have to agree that if i bought another frame 2nd hand it would be a good idea to inspect it taken apart as I’m sure bodges could be made to cover actual frame wear if it had occurred .
    there is one other problem area to check . the horst link pivot .tightness can be awkward to set correctly without a torque wrench and because of the design , if the bolt is slightly too loose ovalisation of the chainstay bolt holes can and does occur (I never understood why they simply didn’t make the bolt/bolt hole a closer fit). I M E too tight can also cause creaking and excess stiction so it’s a fine balancing trick.I also grease under the pivot bolt heads.

    when I bought my frame the bike had been to the dealers previously for a supposed service. they either didn’t check the HL pivots or left them too loose and I initially presumed this was simply a worn bushing. I soon sussed it out though and fortunately no ovalisation had occurred.
    I personally check my HL pivots for undue movement on a regular basis ( 10 sec job with the bike upside down) I’ve also done a mod (fooriders) to the pivot to allow better greasing.
    recently rode half a dozen top end full sussers costing 3 to 4 grand each and personally preferred my turner .
    Great bike
    hthelps
    Bill in Exeter

    haggis1978
    Full Member

    ok so i think i can rest easy about pivot wear now then as long as i inspect regularly and apply some loctite retaining compound between the top hat and the frame, is this right?

    kaiser
    Free Member

    I doubt many owners inspect their pivots regularly (that’s one reason why they buy turners) . ideally a 2nd hand frame would need dismantling and examining by someone who has a feel/experience of these things (not rocket science btw ..but I know many riders who are hopeless with maintenance/fettling) Any worn bushes should be replaced ..then all pivots (not shock) greased/ torqued/threadlocked up correctly(ish)and you should be fine for ages . obviously an occasional wobble of the linkages to detect any looseness/play would be a good idea + perhaps a once monthly squirt with grease into the grease ports might be useful though probably overkill.
    oh ..forgot …re loctite to secure the bushes I have no experience but if I couldn’t get a decent tight press fit then something along these lines would have to be considered . Doubt many people feel the need to do it but google to research if you’re bothered.

    haggis1978
    Full Member

    cheers Kaiser (and everyone else), all very good info that has set me right at ease now 😀

    john_walker74
    Free Member

    I have not had the bushes rotate in my Hl 5 spot frame, but as posted above have heard it can happen. In the six years I have had mine I have only had to replace the main pivot twice. The first time was only due to the bolt coming loose during a ride causing premature wear! So far the bike has required very little attention bar the odd squirt of grease into the ports every now and again and the main pivot bush!

    fivespot
    Free Member

    Owned a 2005 HL 5spot for about 6 mths, and loved it, then I tried a Cove Hustler….WOW! far more confidence inspiring and FUN than the 5spot, rear ride quality was more refined than the 5spot, mainly due to the Turner bushes creating a noticable stiction to the back suspension action. Steering, although a smidgen slacker, was more possitive, this may be down to the more sustantial tubing around the Hustlers headtube (both bike were on Pikes).

    Cove got it so right with the Hustler, that the current bike still has the same geometry as a 2006 one.

    nick3216
    Free Member

    If you like the xc orientation of the epiphany you’re comparing it against the wrong Turner. That’s Flux territory. Light, strong, steeper angles, less all-mountain, more mile muncher than the 5 Spot

    NorthCountryBoy
    Free Member

    Hi Haggis , i have an old chain stay that has some wear on the surface that runs against the top hat bush. It is fairly light scoring and didnt really cause any play in the frame but took few pics so you know what and where to look.
    There is a little rubber seal ring that runs around the edge of the top hat bush if dirt & grit gets behind the seal and is left without cleaning and regreasing it will cause wear

    markgraylish
    Free Member

    Mark graylish – So what you’re saying is that in 5 years, the truth broke three times, with some regularity?

    My HL 5spot has had a similar life and only just cracked at the chainstay.

    As someone else pointed out, the Truth and the 5 Spot are not really comparable and I’m pretty confident that I was riding the Truth outside it’s design envelope! Just for balance, I should mention that I also have an Ellsworth Moment and I haven’t broke that yet! 😉

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