I'm going to be spending this week in Edinburgh (near Murrayfield) and I'm looking for some biking within cycling distance of the hotel, is Arthurs Seat any good?
Any suggestions? Just looking for something to keep me out of the pub for a bit
Thanks
Bike Forum
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Edinburgh biking
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Posted 3 years ago #
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Arthur's Seat is out of bounds to bikes, can't remember why exactly.
Murrayfield's not far from the canal, which gets you onto the Water of Leith. Up there to Balerno and the Pentlands.
I'm Murrayfield meself. If it's evenings I could show you a bit, or sure others will be happy to. Costorphine Hill's also got some stuff.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Yes Arthurs seat is not legal to ride
Plenty in pentlands. You can be there in 30m
Posted 3 years ago # -
corstorphine woods is right beside murrayfield - not very big but lots of fun!
Posted 3 years ago # -
weird, i was going to post the same question, im in Ed for next week and was wondering if i should bring the road bike or mtb?
Posted 3 years ago # -
I thought you could ride everywhere in Scotland? How come Arthur's seat is out of bounds?
Posted 3 years ago # -
it's the Queens park and subject to special law.
Posted 3 years ago # -
As the others have said - pick up the water of leith path beside Murreyfield ride out on that to the pentlands. ( best IMO to go up the steps onto the canal as you cross it then back off the canal after 1/2 mile. scotroute.com has a google earth overlay of pentlands paths - nothing very exciting but some nice singletrack. its best if you have someone to show you where the best bits are tho - even if they are all on that overlay.
Corstorphine hill has some fun bits on it. Again local knowledge helps
Posted 3 years ago # -
The GE overlay is, err, offline for the moment. However, if you want to email me, I could either send it to you or perhaps suggest a couple of routes for you. It's light until around 8 these evenings, so a trip to/from the Pentlands could even be fitted in after work.
As for Arthurs Seat/Queens Park, whether or not it's acceptable to cycle there is in doubt. I've asked both the Rangers and Historic Scotland to provide me with (a link to) the relevant legislation and so far they've both declined. If it was that clear cut, I'm sure they'd be able to. I think we need a test case - I thought TJ had volunteered for this?
Posted 3 years ago # -
Druidh,
When you say H.S. / Their rangers have not provided you with a "link" to the legislation:
(1) did you make your request in writing (or by email)
(2) did you make is more than 21 working days ago?
(3) have they replied?Did you specifically request a hyperlink - or simply a copy of the legislation, or details of which legislation?
Its obviously not possible for them to provide a hyperlink if the relevant legislation is not published on-line. Just because information is not on the web does not make it less valid!
I'm not sure if they can legally supply you with a photocopy of the legislation either - since it is probably crown copyright - but they should be able to tell you how to obtain a copy from e.g. HMSO.
I believe you will find that the law you are seeking is:
The Holyrood Park Regulations 1971 (as amended).
These regulations were made under the Parks Regulations (Amendment) Act 1926 which you can read here: http://www.opsi.gov.uk/RevisedStatutes/Acts/ukpga/1926/cukpga_19260036_en_1
I would expect copies of the current Holyrood Park Regulations to be displayed on notice boards in the park itself.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Thanks everyone.
Just arrived. Going to try Corstorphine Hill tomorrow and maybe the Pentlands later on in the week.
Thanks again
Posted 3 years ago # -
Hairyneep - want a (slow) guide? e mail me on Jeremy.pascoe@btinternet.com if you do - I need an excuse to get out more often
Posted 3 years ago # -
poly - Member
Druidh,
When you say H.S. / Their rangers have not provided you with a "link" to the legislation:
(1) did you make your request in writing (or by email)
(2) did you make is more than 21 working days ago?
(3) have they replied?Did you specifically request a hyperlink - or simply a copy of the legislation, or details of which legislation?
Its obviously not possible for them to provide a hyperlink if the relevant legislation is not published on-line. Just because information is not on the web does not make it less valid!
I'm not sure if they can legally supply you with a photocopy of the legislation either - since it is probably crown copyright - but they should be able to tell you how to obtain a copy from e.g. HMSO.
I believe you will find that the law you are seeking is:
The Holyrood Park Regulations 1971 (as amended).
These regulations were made under the Parks Regulations (Amendment) Act 1926 which you can read here: http://www.opsi.gov.uk/RevisedStatutes/Acts/ukpga/1926/cukpga_19260036_en_1
I would expect copies of the current Holyrood Park Regulations to be displayed on notice boards in the park itself.
(1) Request was by email
(2) It was several months ago
(3) The emailed reply was "current Holyrood Park Regulations are displayed on notice boards in the park "I was not necessarily expecting a hyperlink, nor a copy of the legislation. I asked what particular piece of legislation applied, in order that I might then locate it / read it.
I would argue that the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 has now superseded the 1926/1971 legislation. Part 1, Chapter 1, Section 6 of LRSA2003 lists all the exceptions. Holyrood Park is not covered by any of those exceptions.
Posted 3 years ago # -
I've asked both the Rangers and Historic Scotland to provide me with (a link to) the relevant legislation and so far they've both declined.
(3) The emailed reply was "current Holyrood Park Regulations are displayed on notice boards in the park "
LOL! Good on them.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Has anyone ever seen one of these notice boards?
Druidh - I taught you were being the test case?
Posted 3 years ago # -
There's some really nice riding in the Pentlands, it's not amazing but it's good enough to keep me going up there every couple of weeks. The best part is possibly Bonaly but it does take time there to find the good parts, so it might not be ideal for you. What sort of distance/difficulty are you after?
Posted 3 years ago # -
isn't there a notice board up by the entrance from holyrood park drive, just past the entrance to the uni, the road by the royal commonwealth, believe just as you enter the park there on the left there is said notice...
Posted 3 years ago # -
I've been cycling off road around Aurther's Seat about twice a week for the last month, some really great single track if you know where to look. I live beside the park (and work in Murrayfield!) and i've never seen any No Cycling signs or any regulations posted. I was stopped several years ago (maybe 8 or 10) by the park rangers and asked to leave.
Also, the Rangers stop working at about 5.30!
Pentlands are in good condition right now, very dry.
Posted 3 years ago # -
I asked what particular piece of legislation applied, in order that I might then locate it / read it.
OK so they met there obligations under the Freedom of Information Scotland Act, and told you where to find the legislation to read. I am sure if you have a problem finding the notice boards the rangers will be able to direct you to them. The other "park" in the same boat is Linlithgow Loch and Peel - and there are 3 such notice boards on display. Historic Scotland have recently put up signs saying the cycling is permitted ON THE PATHS. There is no real off path riding in this case, and it would probably not be "responsible access" in this situation to be riding off the paths.
Well before you go to court you might want to re-read 6.1(d). The LRA did not repeal existing legislation.
I would argue that the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 has now superseded the 1926/1971 legislation. Part 1, Chapter 1, Section 6 of LRSA2003 lists all the exceptions. Holyrood Park is not covered by any of those exceptions.Posted 3 years ago # -
LRSA2003 6.1(d)??
(d) to which public access is, by or under any enactment other than this Act, prohibited, excluded or restricted;
But public access isn't "prohibited, excluded or restricted".
Posted 3 years ago # -
I got stopped by a ranger last year (didn't realise it was not allowed). She just smiled and said "You shouldn't be here but carry on for today". Then her old hag of a colleague stopped me again on the way down and wasn't so friendly.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Druidh
But public access isn't "prohibited, excluded or restricted".
of course it is thats your complaint.I haven't read the Holyrood Park Regulations (as they aren't available online) - but I presume they say "no cycling except on roads" or words to that effect. That is a restriction on public access. That restriction is made be Regulations which are under an "Enactment other than [the LR(S)A]"
Posted 3 years ago # -
I would argue that the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 has now superseded the 1926/1971 legislation. Part 1, Chapter 1, Section 6 of LRSA2003 lists all the exceptions. Holyrood Park is not covered by any of those exceptions.
it doesn't work like that - for legislation to change that which is already in existence, it will explicitly repeal it.
Posted 3 years ago # -
poly - Member
Druidh
> But public access isn't "prohibited, excluded or restricted".
of course it is thats your complaint.
I haven't read the Holyrood Park Regulations (as they aren't available online) - but I presume they say "no cycling except on roads" or words to that effect. That is a restriction on public access. That restriction is made be Regulations which are under an "Enactment other than [the LR(S)A]"
Oh, this is good btw - I feel we're getting somewhere.
The bit I'm looking for is the part of the 1926/1972 regulations which limit cycling within the park. Anyone can stick up a "no cycling" sign, the question is, does it have any legal weight?
poly - MemberThere is no real off path riding in this case, and it would probably not be "responsible access" in this situation to be riding off the paths.
Why would this not be considered "responsible"?
Posted 3 years ago # -
Drove through the park last night and didn't see any notice boards etc at the commy pool end.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Following some of the chatter on this on the forum, I took the liberty of asking my colleagues in the Recreation and Access Group of Scottish Natural Heritage for their view on the legality of riding bikes in Holyrood Park
Below is the response I received.
**It should be noted that this is their interpretation of the relevant bits of legislation and and not necessarily a definitive statement of the law by SNH.The LRSA 2003 establishes a statutory right of access, conditional on responsible behaviour, over most land;
a small number of types of land are excluded eg - Sec 6(1)(d) - which is paraphrased below:
access rights are not exercisable where pre-existing legislation created an exclusion / restriction regarding public access.The principal Act (the Parks Regulation Act 1872) defined various parks & gardens, which include Holyrood, and created a power for managers of these places to create Regulations;
this Act was then amended by the Parks Regulations (Amendment) Act 1926 which enabled parks managers to make Regulations - "to be observed by persons using any park to which the principal Act applies, as they consider necessary for securing the proper management of the park, and the preservation of order and prevention of abuses therein, and if any person fails to comply with, or acts in contravention of, any regulations so made, he shall be guilty of an offence against the principal Act
The Holyrood Park Regulations, which were amended in 1971 are still in effect, and have had various amendments over the years. The latest fairly full amendment was the Holyrood Park Amendment Regulations 2004, which came into effect on 17 Dec 2004, which is after the LRSA was passed, so those 2004 Amendment probably count as being within the spirit of a section 30 type review.
From that, cycling is not among the 32 'Prohibited Acts' set out in section 3. [That is on the interpretation that a pedal cycle is not a 'vehicle' nor a 'mechanically propelled appliance', which I don't think it is since the term 'pedal-cycle' is used elsewhere in the Regs].
Section 4 is "Acts for which Written Permission is required", and this section does include 4(4) "riding a pedal cycle in line with others so as to form a line of more than two abreast", and 4(5) "driving or cycling at a speed greater than 30 miles per hour".
So from my reading, since Dec 2004, so long as you are not three or more abreast, and going less than 30 miles per hour, - and are cycling responsibly of course - then you are generally ok to pedal cycle in Holyrood Park
Trip up the Radical Road later anyone?
Posted 3 years ago # -
Thanks Geoff
Thats sounds as good as we are going to get without a court case. I have been cycling in the park since 2004 anyway. I suggest tho that "responsible" would be fairly restrictive - not on sunny weekends nor in peak tourist season and not when its wet. Very open to debate tho as to what is responsible. We could of course set up a points scoring system for collecting tourists.
Posted 3 years ago # -
How about this?
Posted 3 years ago # -
Think i preferred riding there when i thought i was breaking the law...
STW Aurther's Seat meet?
Posted 3 years ago # -
geoffj - well done you have obviously managed to find the current park regulations (or someone who had them) which was the stumbling block.
So where is "responsible" to ride is the only debate. This may preclude large groups of riders, riding in conditions where you are likely to cause significant erosion etc. TJ also makes a fair point that responsible access would mean not causing alarm or hazard to other people responsibly excercising their access rights - so busy days are out unless you are happy to go at walking pace! To MY mind responsible in this particular context (i.e. the park) probably means sticking to existing paths and trails rather than wearing new paths across fresh surfaces (i'm not saying tarmacked surfaces, but responsible access has to take account of erosion risk. However there is interesting case law from Highland Council, where a land owner tried to prevent access to horses on the basis that if "10 horses road along the path that would cause such damage that others (e.g. walkers) could not access the land due to the condition/erosion. The court found that such unilateral decisions were not acceptable since an occasional lone horse would not cause the same damage.
Posted 3 years ago # -
I think you also have to take into account that it can be rammed on certain paths up there.
Posted 3 years ago # -
poly - Member
However there is interesting case law from Highland Council, where a land owner tried to prevent access to horses on the basis that if "10 horses road along the path that would cause such damage that others (e.g. walkers) could not access the land due to the condition/erosion. The court found that such unilateral decisions were not acceptable since an occasional lone horse would not cause the same damage.Interesting case. I've used the same argument on here regarding access to Cairngorm Plateau by bike.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Not the cairngorm plateau again Druidh
As for "responsible access" in the park - I am fairly sure that creating new paths would not be - IIRC the basic rule is "if there is a path you can ride it" So no riding over unworn areas - there are lots of paths tho.
Not upsetting both the natives and the tourists would be right as well - I tend to only go up there out of tourist season and in the week or after dark and give way to all walkers I see, stopping if at all needed.
Posted 3 years ago # -
IIRC the basic rule is "if there is a path you can ride it" So no riding over unworn areas - there are lots of paths tho.
OK - where exactly did you read that rule?
Posted 3 years ago # -
I'd avoid Arthurs Seat because of the high risk of hitting a drunken Oxbridge reject. Might give it a bash at night though. I'm going out in the Pents on Thurs night for a couple of hours, probably meeting at Cargo at the end of the canal about six. You are more than welcome.
Posted 3 years ago #
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