I’ve not ridden Cut Gate for a couple of years now, having moved away from the area, but it used to be a regular ride. I absolutely love the trail, but like others only ride it in drier conditions.

My inclination is to leave it alone and focus on rider education. I appreciate that rider education is likely to have limited effect, given the reasons outlined by others above. However, some people will pay attention.

I’d hate to see the trail covered in flagstones. A few little sections of flagstone where necessary is one thing, but it can definitely go too far. The packhorse trail down into Marsden is a prime example of this – a couple of really boggy bits did need to be flagged but massive sections of the trail got unnecessarily ‘improved’. The end result was the ability to ride at much higher speeds, potentially causing increased conflict with other trail users, and a surface that was prone to getting covered in ice.

In a way, it’s almost better for it to have large boggy sections when it’s wet, rather than one or two smaller ones, as it makes people less inclined to ride it in unsuitable conditions.

Having read the booklet it targets the only two areas of concern, which is good. Those two areas do need dealing with, they are suddenly much worse than they used to be and the areas to the side are deteriorating rapidly as people avoid them.

I’ve no objection to two short sections of flags, they’d only be 20-40m long which isn’t going to be a deal breaker and it’ll last. I can’t see aggregate lasting as long and I’m not certain it wouldn’t be affected by mud in the same way. Bear in mind that these two points ford streams, which are likely to was aggregate away.

chakaping, YHM back. As Podge says, Pook has helped somewhat!!

munrobiker, exactly – we’re highlighting a couple of points, not the whole route

It’s a collaborative effort!

And that’s what it needs to be. This debate is just what we want from the document – but for it to be really effective we need input from walkers, horse riders and runners too. Your input is great (and I know we all wear two hats and that – I’m a walker when I’m not on my bike) but spread the word.

If you see the document elsewhere in other groups then please let us know.

Paving or partially paving Cut Gate would seem ruin its point (A bit like the Pennine Way). At the moment this is the only legal route across the moor so its quite heavily used.

I don’t think anyone is suggesting paving large sections of the track, just a couple of boggy areas where users are deviating from the main trail and widening it, creating large areas of erosion.

Everyone seems to have forgotten that around ten(?) or so years back, the whole trail was given a thorough and very sympathetic makeover by the PDNP, I think. It was a model of how trail restoration should work and while one or two areas – the slabbed section that runs along a peaty shoulder for example – are very obviously built, in other areas you can barely tell it’s been worked on.

Big chunks of it, the sustainable bits, were pretty much left alone. There are places where you can still see and ride the original line if you want to, but the ‘new’ trail is better, more flowing and just works.

I’ve been riding Cut Gate since the early 90s and in the right conditions, it’s a brilliant bit of trail with a proper wilderness feel to it that’s actually been improved by the restoration work in the part, which isn’t something you can always say unfortunately.

Done right you could make those boggy sections interesting with careful placement of rocks to create a sustainable line that’s actually interesting rather than just big, paved slabs. As a parallel, consider the small singletrack diversion on the Campsite descent above Hayfield. It was put in to prevent people from basically head-butting the wall on the off-camber bend on the main trail, but because it’s fun to ride, people use it.

I don’t see why Cut Gate sections couldn’t be made interesting too – stick in a moderately narrow, elevated plank bridge for example – no, not extreme north shore – or some ‘stepping stone’ links that actually require some thought and technical ability to ride, but are easy to walk across too. Or even provide two alternative lines.

I know the counter-view is about making things accessible for everyone, but trail restoration doesn’t have to mean trail sanitisation if you do it right.

ps: if Cut Gate was left ‘natural’ there wouldn’t actually be a trail, just a stream-bed… and some sheep.

and there’s nothing natural about sheep.

it’s already an entirely man made environment, the idea that by leaving it alone we’d be ‘leaving it wild’ is fundamentally flawed.

if we ignore the problem, it’s only a matter of time before someone with a bit of clout looks at it and says, loudly, ‘those mountainbikers are pain in the neck aren’t they? – it’s a good job they’re not allowed on the other paths’

Pook and Simon have done an amazing job of assessing the problem, and starting a conversation about it, and a positive force within that conversation.

if we ignore the problem

What problem?.

Your citing that sheep are not natural :roll:, I’m sure people that have farmed the area for the past 100 years would say its not natural for a bike to be up there either.

What problem?.

erosion/damage/loss of peat is a problem, National Parks spend a lot of time and money trying to reduce/mitigate erosion, and repair/regenerate the peat.

its not natural for a bike to be up there either.

exactly, human activity is very much part of the landscape up there, asking if there is anything we could be doing to lessen our impact is a good thing.

erosion (and loss) of peat is a problem,

For who, you? How is it your problem? You don’t actually have any stake in the land other than being granted permission to use it.

So stop the bikes then, problem solved people will still be up there walking.

Oh look, its Phil trolling again.

and there’s nothing natural about sheep.

Are you sure about that? 😉

The solution is easy

A roll or two of Combigrid 20/20 Q1 from http://www.naue.com/naue-geosynthetics/combigrid/ and some 300mm of Type1 MOT and thats your floating weather proof surface.

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/cut-gate thread resurrection

7 YEARS AGO (beat that then)

bloke at bottom of thread didnt seem too chuffed about bogs

erosion (and loss) of peat is a problem,

For who, you? How is it your problem? You don’t actually have any stake in the land other than being granted permission to use it.[/quote]

Peat is about 90% carbon. Its erosion leads to oxidation, which releases carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, which means that peat erosion is contributing to global warming. Its well documented on the internet!

philxx1975 – Member
…You don’t actually have any stake in the land

i live downstream of this enormous rain-catchment area, it’s management is very much my business.

i live downstream of this enormous rain-catchment area, it’s management is very much my business.

lets make it about you eh? Plenty of people live downstream special petal.

What exactly is your point philxx1975?

I don’t. For me it’s more about

1) the protection of the peak
2) the reputation of mountain bikers

In fact, pretty much what we say in the intro to the booklet.

Simple really.

philxx1975 said something stupid.

My killfile list now has three inhabitants.

😀

problem solved people will still be up there walking

This is why we’re hoping the booklet goes further. It’s not just bikes causing the perceived problem. It can’t just be bikers determining what the potential future of those bits should be

This is why we’re hoping the booklet goes further. It’s not just bikes causing the perceived problem. It can’t just be bikers determining what the potential future of those bits should be

Has anyone ever actually seen horse riders up there? Not a loaded question, just wondering. Similarly on Jacob’s Ladder.

Has anyone ever actually seen horse riders up there? Not a loaded question, just wondering. Similarly on Jacob’s Ladder.

I’ve seen one once on Cut Gate.
The hoof marks were massive and deep between the end of the slabs and the cairn. I was surprised. Chatted for a while at the cairn. They had struggled to get up out of the ford, but made it all while mounted. I was quite impressed. It sounded like a bit of an one-off adventure rather than a regular thing though.

Slightly OT (but when’s that ever stopped STW?) – a friend who is well into horses has a map of The Dales with each BW colour coded according to how suitable it is to take her horses along. So those marked red are bog fests, etc. I’d imagine the horsey crowd in the Peak will have worked out something similar and shared it amongst themselves.

Generally horse riders are looking for the same things we are: a route with a decent surface that avoids traffic.

I’ve seen horses up there once, and you do occasionally see their tracks, though I’ve not seen any in the last year.

I did see some motorbikers up there midweek last summer, they’d cleverly snapped their number plates in half or unscrewed them so I couldn’t report them. Apparently they were going up to Derwent Edge.

I know about 10-15 years ago motorbikers were up there quite a bit but judging by the tracks it’s a lot less common now. Might still be worth looking into motorbike gates at either end, though, especially if Type 1 is the proposed solution to the bogs of doom as they’d tear it apart very quickly.

do we have any figures about how long MTBers and walkers will take to wear the mountain away until it’s flat? 😐

https://www.imba.com/resources/research/trail-science/natural-resource-impacts-mountain-biking

I’m sure you could do the maths from some of the research there. I’d guess around 10 million years. 9 accounting for the invention of Strava 😉

I have only ever seen horses on three separate occasions up on the top in all the years I’ve been using it. There is an area in the Langsett Barn car park that has been set up for horse boxes and horses but only seen it in use on once.

I’ve never seen a horse up there. Having said that, the path is on the Peak Horsepower Kinder Loop so it’s a a route of particular interest + they have the right to be up there so we should talk to them. As we’re trying to!

Hi folks, bubbling this one back up. We’re working with Peak District National Park to gather feedback on this so please share with other groups.

The debate so far is brilliant – just what’s needed. You can send you comments directly to info@peakdistrictmtb.org too if you like, or on the Ride Sheffield and Peak District MTB facebook pages.