Ah right. Out of interest, how many steel full suss frames are there on the market? Surely the shock does the trail damping on behalf of aluminium. So no need for a steel is real?

Again this isn’t being negative or trolling. I still remember Keewee frames (admittably freeride/DH frames) that were heavy. Just interested to see why 853. USP?

I’m surprised that people are surprised over the pricing.

Cotic have previously stated that the build what they are happy with and price based on this. They are not targeting the On-One end of the market and they probably know that they can’t charge stupid prices either (their not selling out on the last soda run will have have an impact too I’m sure). If I was Cy I’d be pricing at the top end of what I think I would ‘get away’ with (has no one ever attended the management lectures as part of their engineering degrees?).

It’s a pretty niche product (coz it’s in steel) and they have a reputation for pretty much sorted bikes. Remember also this is not their first foray into full sus either.

I’m pretty much the same situation as Toml above. I’d prefer a shorter travel bike with typical Cotic geo. can’t afford anything else atm neither as I’m down for a Solaris… Yeah I’m a fanboi too. Hey ho.

Not many steel full suss bikes, steel is often considered as cheap and heavy compared to Alu but if you know what you are doing (and as the HT range of Cotic bikes shows they do) then steel can be used as a perfectly good or better substitute.

I guess it is a bit of a USP but Cotic know a lot about 853 so why not stick with what you know and if they used standard 4130 (despite it being so similar in feel and weight) you’d lose some of the appeal.

Bless. I do love the “does Xmm of travel for £y” brigade.

Cotic aren’t Tesco Value Mince.

I wandered past a load of BMC Trail Fox carbon bikes the other day – the most expensive bike to ever come on a night ride from the Stubbings. Mental money. Loads of them there were in this factory.

God bless Cy for doing it different. God bless everyone that does it different.

They’ll sell, they’ll sell out. Bring it on.

It’s like Levis vs Wrangler vs C&A jeans.

Or whatever.

it’s late (in China) and I’ve been drinking (very cheap Tsingtao)

Fanboi’s? Everyone should be allowed to question any new product on a forum though. Doesn’t make you evil, just curious no? 🙂

Sometime Brant, just sometimes, you speak some sense.

Have some more beer.

Have some more beer.

I have run out of beer and just opened a bottle of 2007 French Cab Serv which costs 1170RMB (about £12).

It’s a half bottle

It was cheaper per unit alcohol than the gin and tonic.

Yup, Brant +1. Cotic arent Tesco Value Mince… Have another beer on me 😉

I thought cotic’s USP is that it’s a Cotic…

We just missed the Cotic crew on Snake pass the other week, I briefly chatted to the rear rider in the group as out paths crossed.

Brant are you hinting that the same factory as BMC may make elements of future PlanetX products? 😉

Brant are you hinting that the same factory as BMC may make elements of future PlanetX products?

maybe

but definitely the same factory that makes BMC makes current Titus carbon products.

How do you ‘know’ it?? Surely if you work for Cotic (I don’t know if you do or don’t? but your comments read that way??) then your opinion is biased.

Hora, I should be clearer to all, to be fair. I work as a product manager (was Madison / Genesis, now Evans) and I’m in Taiwan now, while here I see things in factories. There’s no secrets out here, you shouldn’t have anything to hide and you stumble across things all the time. I don’t think it’s my place to say who makes what where, but Cotics are made somewhere that I trust and have experience with.

Out of curiosity what else is made in this factory that you trust? Just looking for good bike frames not trying to work out which factory it is.

But the real question is what is made in a factory you don’t trust? (not that your going to answer it or expect you to)

Rustybike, you’re asking an awkward question ) I said it’s not for me to say who does what where or if I didn’t have a good impression of a factory where someone else makes stuff. (edit, nothing against anyone that does discuss all this, as I said there’s no secrets here anyway). The brands you’d be interested in tend to be good for good reasons, where they’re made being part of that, design and communication, QC etc another (related) part of it.

Bicycle Retailer and Industry News report on who of the bigger brands makes what where each year, most brands name their sources, but without knowledge of the factories it will mean little.

What you may be suprised by is that often, brands with very high perceived quality / coolness are made in the same places as brands that some rate less. That’s marketing for ya.

Brill. Where can I pick up a unbranded carbon road frame/fork then? 😉

(Early morning joke)

The main USP, I believe, for the steel front triangle is stiffness around the pivot. Cy points out that you can only go so big with a seat tube and a steel tube that size is stiffer than an aluminium one. I gather the Hemlock was notable for having great suspension action but too much unwanted flex around the pivots, and Cy’s reasoning behind the Rocket design appears to be producing a slacker frame with much greater stiffness and similar feeling suspension with a bit more feedback (once you take into account improved shock designs).

Hora, I should be clearer to all, to be fair.

Nae, don’t worry it’s just hora. No one really pay any attention about his posts.

FrenchJuan? You’ve ditched the free-translation/Jack Daniels method of posting then? 🙄

Funny thread this. If Niner for instance had made this bike in 853, it would have been well the other side of £2k and no better finished. Obviously it would also have had bigger wheels, but I use them as an example of a brand with similar edge of niche/mainstream brand who make steel frames in similar places.

“Weren’t the old Cotic full suss frames knocked out at a reduced price at the end?”
IIRC they went up at the end, to £1100 (inc RP23, seat collar, chainstay, posted)

“Why not introduce a single pivot/simple frame at a lower price point as the start of a full suss range builder?”
Like a heckler? I assume many more people with know/hear of santa cruz than cotic, why would you buy a cheap cotic (after WMB/MBUK/bikeradar told people the hemlock broke (without saying there was a spacer missing)) over (the well proven) Santa Cruz Heckler?

How does a missing spacer cause a frame to break??

It was cheaper per unit alcohol than the gin and tonic.

You know you’re on a mission to get drunk when you start doing those sums… 😀

Plenty of single pivots on the market. Different angles, shape, colours, sizing differences.

Same with 4-bars. Should all the other manufacturers give up if one offers a 4-bar?

After making my earlier comments, I’ve been trawling around looking at prices.
I hadn’t realised just how much some Taiwanese frames were going for these days. For e.g. I didn’t realise that the RP23 wasn’t included in a lot of the baseline prices.

Cotic Rocket RP23: £1475

TRANSITION Bandit RP23: £1400
TRANSITION Covert RP23: £1400
Santa Cruz Heckler RP23: £1299
Santa Cruz Butcher RP23: £1599
Pivot Mach5.7 RP23: £1699

Some other prices:
Orange 5 RP23: £1499.99
Nicolai Helius AM RP23: £2045
Intense Tracer 2 RP23: £1799

I am still loving my hemlock.
Will be looking out for these new frames..

but definitely the same factory that makes BMC makes current Titus carbon products.

just to clarify BMC have their own production facility in swissland where they make their own carbon frames.
http://www.bmc-racing.com/int-en/impec/factory-tour.html

Santa Cruz Heckler RP23: £1299

Its not worth that much. (Thats coming from a SC fanboi).

it’s a tricky game though – using steel.

we don’t care what brand/type of aluminium Transition use. But if you want steel, anything other than 853 would be seen as cheap, and ‘not quite good enough’, or ‘made from gas pipes’.

our aversion to anything that doesn’t have a little green/yellow/black sticker is maybe a little irrational, and it adds cost.

853 is amazing stuff though, it’s use can be justified (add some cost, save a little weight)

a Rocket made from on-one’s DN6 tubing would be bit cheaper/heavier, but would lose a little of it’s ‘i want’ appeal.

On those prices surely the bargain of the moment is the Ariel frameset with RP23 from Saracen at £999….?

Universally acclaimed by all in the industry who rode/tested it but not fashionable at the moment so largely unnoticed….shame, British firm and all that.

A Titus El Guapo is half the price, go figure…

chiefgrooveguru – Member

I gather the Hemlock was notable for having great suspension action but too much unwanted flex around the pivots

TBH I’d never really heard that til Cy mentioned it in the Rocket posts. Not something that I’ve ever noticed myself tbh, the Hemlock’s way stiffer than many competitors.

What were those downhill bikes with the pull shocks and space frames, Anceloti or something, did they have steel frames, or just tubular aluminium?

I’ve been lucky enough to ride one of the first protypes.

Wasn’t convinced about a steel FS bike: can’t work else everyone would be doing it surely?

But was very surprised: looks right in the flesh (realistically probably the most important to a frame’s success at the end of the day!), light weight, very stiff (noticeably stiffer laterally than my 2010 Remedy), and rode very well. The one I rode had a rp23 on it and more ‘pop’ than any other bike I’ve ridden. Very responsive, loads of airtime off any little bumps/roots – a lot of FUN!

And yes, this might be a bit biased as I am a mate of Cy’s, but I’m not a Cotic fanboy, and have owned a fair few of recent sorted full sus bikes.

And is it worth the price? Only you can answer that.

isn’t there a Canadian company who make aluminium front ends and steel back ends?

thepodge – Member
isn’t there a Canadian company who make aluminium front ends and steel back ends?

Xprezo – think they’re all steel.

http://xprezo.ca/

the doe-eyed market will love it.
the smart money is on a generic well proven taiwanese aluminium frame with a 5 year+ warranty and a proven history.
there are numerous options out there in the £899-£1100 price bracket.

Am I strange in thinking that the price is a little bit irrelevant? It’s in the ball park of all the other bikes, +/- a couple of hundred quid.

At the end of the day, if it’s “The Right Thing ™” for you for whatever reason and you *WANT* it, then price is pretty much irrelevant. You’ll work out a way to get hold of one. In similar situations, if I can’t afford what I think is “The Right Thing ™”, then I’ll carry on saving until I can. The discomfort of the initial cost is soon forgotten when “The Right Thing ™” turns out to be the right thing and you love using it.

It’s worth remembering that despite the amount of interweb coverage Cotic get they’re still a tiny company. I guess they might shift, what 100?, Rocket frames, max, over the next year, worldwide. There will be enough people who *want* the Rocket, either because they love the fit ride and handling, or the looks, or that it has an 853 sticker or simply because it says Cotic on it, that they’ll sell. They won’t appeal to everybody, but then that’s the purpose of a niche!

I’ve seen one in the flesh. Looks pretty good, but until I (and everyone else on this thread) has ridden one (the important bit), it’s all speculation. It’s unlikely that it’ll be a complete dog. The Hemlock, despite it’s press slagging is a great riding bike (the missus has one), and I still wonder if I should have bought one too, as it would be a much better all round bike than my Uzzi is, although obviously less DH biased.

5+ year warranty, who doing them?

giant (5 years). and marin if you want to pay for a longer period, there may/will be others.
i wouldn’t buy any frame with just a 1-2 year warranty unless it’s seriously cheap.
but then a lot of people seem to change bikes fairly frequently as the next big thing is released.

I didn’t know they were on 5 years and I have a giant myself