johnners – Member
well if a teacher was to hit my child they would spend the rest of ther lives wishing id killed them. it would be a baseball bat to every joint in ther body…the rest of ther life would be spent in pain!

Wow. You created an account just to post blowhard drivel like that?

hit my child and die! I take it you dont have any children!

i received in said Scottish schools twice I cant remember what for but i was about 5 & 6 when they happened.
I would say the lesson it taught me was that some adults think when you cant explain yourself and you are so self assured about how right you are then hit someone smaller and weaker than you.
Obviously this is a lesson every child should learn by being hit by someone bigger than them in a position of authority.
I have worked in schools and with “people who challenge” and some do deserve a dig unfortunately it wont actually solve anything. You are still teaching them that force and strength are the ways to get your own way. You may teach them to make sure they only pick on the weak but not that bullying or force are not legitimate actions to use to get your own way.
Not a fan at all. Why should we let adults assault children?

hit my child and die! I take it you dont have any children!

I think I’d like to have yours, are you single?

‘Please, Sir.’
‘Don’t interrupt, boy, when I’m speaking.’
He stepped back and filled the gap in the line.
‘I’m sick of you boys, you’ll be the death of me. Not a day goes by without me having to deal with a line of boys. I can’t remember a day, not one day, in all the years I’ve been in this school, and how long’s that? … ten years, and the school’s no better now than it was on the day that it opened. I can’t understand it. I can’t understand it at all.’
The boys couldn’t understand it either, and they dropped their eyes as he searched for an answer in their faces. Failing to find one there, he stared past them out of the window.
[…]
‘I’ve taught in this city for over thirty-five years now; many of your parents were pupils under me in the old city schools before this estate was built; and I’m certain that in all those years I’ve never encountered a generation as difficult to handle as this one. I thought I understood young people, I should be able to with all my experience, yet there’s something happening today that ‘s frightening, that makes me feel that it’s all been a waste of time… Like it’s a waste of time standing here talking to you boys, because you won’t take a blind bit of notice what I’m saying. I know what you’re thinking now, you’re thinking, why doesn’t he get on with it and let us go, instead of standing there babbling on? That’s what you’re thinking isn’t it? Isn’t it, MacDowall?’
‘No, Sir.’
‘O yes it is. I can see it in your eyes, lad, they’re glazed over. You’re not interested. Nobody can tell you anything, can they, MacDowall? You know it all, you young people, you think you’re so sophisticated with all your gear and your music. But the trouble is, it’s only superficial, just a sheen with nothing worthwhile or solid underneath. As far as I can see there’s been no advance at all in discipline, decency, manners or morals. And do you know how I know this? Well, I’ll tell you. Because I still have to use this every day.’
He brought the stick round from behind his back for the boys to have a look at.
‘It’s fantastic isn’t it, that in this day and age, in this super-scientific, all-things-bright-and-splendiferous age, that the only way of running this school efficiently is by the rule of the cane. But why? There should be no need for it now. You lot have got it on a plate.’
‘I can understand why we had to use it back in the ‘twenties and ‘thirties. Those were hard times; they bred hard people, and it needed hard measures to deal with them. But those times bred people with qualities totally lacking in you people today. They bred people with respect for a start. We knew where we stood in those days, and even today a man will often stop me in the street and say “Hello Mr Gryce, remember me?” And we’ll pass the time of day and chat, and he’ll laugh about the thrashings I gave him.’
‘But what do I get from you lot? A honk from a greasy youth behind the wheel of some big second-hand car. Or an obscene remark from a gang – after they’ve passed me.’
‘They took it then, but not now, not in this day of the common man, when every boy quotes his rights, and shoots off home for his father as soon as I look at him… No guts… No backbone… you’ve nothing to commend you whatsoever. You’re just fodder for the mass media!’

Kes. 1968.

Plus ça change…

As a teacher who used to get the belt for being crap at art, I would not use it. Belting a kid is unfair if they are only learning right from wrong at school. If they have never been socialised by their parents,then you are always going to be fighting a losing battle.

jumpupanddown – Member

I don’t believe you have children, NOBODY has ever been that drunk/much of a self-harmer/desperate/mentally ill/seeking asylum

I don’t believe you have children NOBODY has ever been that drunk

if you cant do teach, and get paid jack all 🙂

I had the cane throughout my school-days – from 7 years old onwards. I support it because it was my preferred choice of punishment. In my experience it was done and dusted not to be mentioned again. In contrast to that, the few teachers who didn’t rely on the cane, seemed to rely instead on trying to humiliate and slag you off endlessly, and never quite forgot your misdemeanor. My only reservation is young children, they suffer not only the physical pain, but even more the psychological trauma. Corporal punishment should only be really be used on secondary school children – 7 years old is too young imo. Mind you I don’t think corporal punishment actually worked on me – presumably just once should have been enough, if it was to have the desired effect, not the countless thrashings I received in every year throughout my school-days. So make of that what you will.

Mind you I don’t think corporal punishment actually worked on me – presumably just once should have been enough, if it was to have the desired effect, not the countless thrashings I received in every year throughout my school-days. So make of that what you will.

So why do you support it then? Did you like the attention? There are gentleman’s clubs in London that will employ people like that you know.

So why do you support it then?

Read the post, I explain why :

“In my experience it was done and dusted not to be mentioned again. In contrast to that, the few teachers who didn’t rely on the cane, seemed to rely instead on trying to humiliate and slag you off endlessly, and never quite forgot your misdemeanor”

I don’t think teachers slagging you off, ranting how useless you are, and trying to humiliate you, had any more success.

Did you like the attention?

I certainly didn’t want any attention from the teachers – I much rathered they just ignored me. And I think my views and attitude on this were very much in line with that of my mates.

That’s all very well ernie, but your point is still bullshit, sorry. You reckon that you support corporal punishment because it allows teachers to disgorge their frustrations on children rather than emotionally abuse them over time? I think you’re just trying to promote yourself and your gritty upbringing/attitude again.

saladdodger – Member
Perhaps just perhaps the old ways were the best

I was a bit wayward at school but the cane stopped that at one school I went to and the threat of that was enough for me lesson learnt.

Did I enjoy corpral punnishment no i did not
Did it work yes it did

Would I agree with bringing it back yes I would,

Alas Dr Spock in the late 50’s was wrong, and look what we have now a ferral society

Didn’t help with your English, though, did it? And what makes you think we have a “ferral” society now?

Answer to the above

yes my written english is crap I admit, thats why I am an electrician not a magazine editor for example. My up bringing was at time’s er painful but I learnt right from wrong and that hard work pays off, so here I am a bloody good tradesman with a house in Devon and a house in France that stick taught me plenty and to be honest I am thankful for it.

If you have the unfortunate pleasure to look around the town and cities where I work and look at the future of this country loitering about you would understand what I mean.

your point is still bullshit

You mean you don’t agree with it…… oh well, never mind eh ?

You reckon that you support corporal punishment because it allows teachers to disgorge their frustrations on children….

No, I don’t reckon that at all – I don’t think corporal punishment “allows teachers to disgorge their frustrations on children”. Well at least I don’t know, maybe it does. What I said was : “in my experience it was done and dusted not to be mentioned again”. I liked that, you were punished and that was the end of it. Which I would say was the attitude of most of the other boys at school with me.

I think you’re just trying to promote yourself and your gritty upbringing/attitude again.

So you don’t reckon I wasn’t actually caned at all – it’s all made up ? And I don’t really support corporal punishment after all ? Well I guess you can think what you want – that’s clearly your prerogative. Although I’m surprised I give you the impression that I give a monkeys what other people think. But there you go.

You are still teaching them that force and strength are the ways to get your own way

100% on the money.

For those people who were caned – did you stop misbehaving because you understood it was wrong, or because you were afraid of what would happen if you got caught?

Ruling by fear is not usually considered a decent way to do things. It was quite frowned upon in the late 1930s I believe*.

* BOOM! Godwin on page 2!

Those who advocate corporal punishment seem to think that the opposing argument is to let kids do whatever they want. This is not the point at all.

The point is that simply hitting a kid when they do something wrong is really not a very good strategy. Would it not be better to manage the situation better to avoid the confrontation in the first place? I am not a fan of authoritarianism.

The pro kid-hitters seem to think that simply hitting kids will solve all today’s problems. I don’t think it would to be fair.

If you have the unfortunate pleasure to look around the town and cities where I work and look at the future of this country loitering about you would understand what I mean.

Is that objectively true, though? Sure, there are problem areas, and certain city centres seem off limits at pub chucking out time, but is it really worse than it was 25 years ago?

I didn’t say you weren’t caned ernie. Most of us who grew up in the 70s and 80s got hit at one point or other. I think your tying yourself in knots now to be honest. You support violence against children as long as they are over 11 despite thinking it never did you any good and acknowledging that it does emotional damage to younger children. Bloody hell.

Well I am 49 and the simple answer is yes

25 years ago people held doors open and were polite, now you get doors in your face and grunts

I did type a lot of stuff out, but after reading it back I’m ashamed at myself and so bring you the abridged version:

[daily mail]It never did me no harm, and my teacher beat me *after* the ban on corporal punishment[/daily mail]

25 years ago people held doors open and were polite, now you get doors in your face and grunts

It’s annoys me when people come out with this nonsense…Plenty ignorant people about 25 years ago. and there are plenty polite people about these days.

25 years ago people held doors open and were polite, now you get doors in your face and grunts

You think that because you’re old.

I still get doors held open for me all the time.

You support violence against children as long as they are over 11 despite thinking it never did you any good and acknowledging that it does emotional damage to younger children.

Eh ? I explained that I don’t support corporal punishment on younger children as the possible psychological trauma doesn’t justify it imo. Where’s the problem ?

As far as supporting it used on older kids despite doubting that it actually had much effect on me is concerned, I have pointed out that other options were also unlikely to be very effective. I guess it worked up to a point, but I said, presumably just once should have been enough, if it was to have the desired effect. I, and other kids at school with me, didn’t behave because corporal punishment existed. It’s clearly not the panacea which some people appear to believe it is.

Bloody hell

Bloody hell I give my two pennies worth and you get all worked up about it. You don’t have to agree with me you know – I’m fine with that. And I’m really not bothered that you’re opposed to corporal punishment. Funnily enough.

No, not a priest, a Christian Brother…an order that specifically educated the male half of an impoverished country that didn’t have money to spend on an education. But, hey, don’t let that get in the way of you making a glib comment.

Nothing gets in the way of the glib comment I’m afraid.

The catholic church is always fair game. They gave up any right to a fair hearing (regardless of the good works your Christian Brothers might have done) when they covered up all those sex abuse cases.

I used to think it was a good thing. In secondary school I got the pump on a number of occasions (waste of time), got the cane once (once was enough to sort me out there) and was reminded (when I forgot) to pay attention in both woodwork and PE with projectile implements.

It all did me a lot of good to be honest, I was rapidly getting out of line and despite a fall back to what can best be described as ‘an angry young man’ in my late teens, that kind of treatement worked well for me.

In retrospect, it was a bad thing. It may have kept me in line but for others who were much more rebelious, it was just an excuse for sadistic teachers to give someone a good kicking.

So no, I’m against it.

If the boys misbehaved in PE at my secondary school the teacher (mr Carnie) would make you go and change into one of various left behind girls little blue pleated skirts and a sleavless tee shirt that was way to small, and then spend the rest of the time playing footie out side the maths and english departments, not good for a 15/16 year olds ego. Extremley funny if it was someone else.

EASILY forgetten is how much ”the Lochgelly”, as it was known, played an integral part in Scottish school life right into the 1980s. At the time two Scots mothers took their cases to the Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg, abolitionists claimed that Scotland was the corporal punishment capital of Europe, with a child being belted on average every two seconds throughout the school week. In the 1982 case, mothers Grace Campbell and Jane Cosans argued that their ”philosophical convict-ions” against corporal punishment had been violated when the schools attended by their sons refused to guarantee that the boys would not be belted. The judges dismissed the defence that corporal punishment was being gradually phased out in Scotland and concluded that even to threaten an individual with torture might constitute ”inhuman treatment”. Strathclyde and Lothian moved quickly to end belting following the case. The last four regions, Grampian, Tayside, Borders, and the Western Isles were forced to introduce the policy when the ban was incorporated into the 1987 Education Act

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/spl/aberdeen/the-belt-finally-buckles-to-pressure-1.349149

That answers my question from earlier! It was phased out in strathclyde the year I started school! 🙂

cain , slipper and ruler across the knuckles now that hurt, put a magazine down me trousers but got sused, endded up with 6 of the best, back then teachers could say bend over .

i remember my dad loling in head teachers face telling him that he left school at 14 and earns 10 times a year more than he did…i didnt finish school, still did uni though…they were wrong..

saladdodger – Member

25 years ago people held doors open and were polite, now you get doors in your face and grunts

I went to school after corporal punishment was banned, and yet somehow I manage to hold doors open for people. I do however cheek my elders when they’re talking crap.

25 years ago people held doors open and were polite, now you get doors in your face and grunts

If people think that going back to corporal punishment in schools, will somehow coerce future generations into being good little citizens, then they are deluded. You have to ask why are they coming to school with an “attitude” problem?

It what happens when we are adults that does it. We are taught to be responsible for ourselves, and while this can be a good thing, we forget what our own actions do to others, and while I can say that the majority here weren’t on the streets last week looting the local JD sports, it’s the subtle acts of irresponsibility that is unraveling society. In other words, we are too self focused to keep an eye on those who are unable or unwilling contribute anything meaningful to society, because we are unwilling to do it ourselves.

Our “attitudes” get passed onto children in the home and heads on into school and then out the other end into wider society, like a big merry go round it gets passed onto each generation.

So before you start inflicting the fear of violence onto Children to get them in line or sending them off to some boot camp on national service, perhaps us adults would care to look at ourselves and our own attitude problems first?

It’s just a thought.

Nothing gets in the way of the glib comment I’m afraid.

So it appears…I was just explaining that there are subtleties and differences to the institutions. The thread is about corporal punishment – don’t go clouding it with more serious stuff, you’ll just confuse the issue. I was taught general science, maths, physics and applied maths by Christian brothers. Much as you’d like to believe, religion never got in the way of the curriculum. All you managed with your glib comment was to make light of the physical punishment dealt out to a kid who simply didn’t get it. Sorry to say, I saw as many lay teachers do it in my time.

I’m of the “it didn’t do me any harm” school. But worse than any punishment I had at school would have been the ignominy of having to tell my parents. That’s the biggest difference between then and now.

But worse than any punishment I had at school would have been the ignominy of having to tell my parents. That’s the biggest difference between then and now.

You told them when you were caned – why ? Surely that’s not what most kids did ?

Guilt 😳

And it would be a belt, not a cane.

simply wouldnt work now.

Guilt

Well for me that was the beauty of getting the cane – your parents never needed to know …. it was done and forgotten. In my experience it was the teachers who for whatever reason didn’t rely on the use of the cane, who were the most likely to want to “talk” to your parents. And I was considerably more frighten of my father than I was of any teacher – his violence was completely arbitrary, and relentless when it occurred.

BTW IIRC, only the cane was allowed in ILEA schools, no other object could be used. And the dimensions of the cane (incl radius) were regulated. As was the use of the ‘punishment book’ in which the reason for the punishment had to be stated, along with how many strokes – 6 being the maximum.

corporal punishment for the kids. Hmmmm. Why not corporal pushment for the kids parents? After all, they created the problems…

They had the strap in my schools….

I got it twice for being bad, fair enough, did it, I got caught, I got punished. 1st for running and shouting (hardly the crime of the century) and second for skitting some lad with a poor hair cut.

In one year however I received it about 60 times! for being “thick” mainly.

Whilst I can accept he 2 detailed above I can’t forgive the ones for when I was “thick”. Although I’d very confident these days back then when i was 10 I had difficulty in expressing myself when I had to stand up in front of the class etc. so I stuttered and stammered a bit. Well unless you answered the maths or spelling question almost instantly that was it, strap time. Tapping his leg going “ooooooo” and then breathing in through his teeth didn’t help much either, a bit like the Countdown clock on channel 4 but leading to a taste of the strap.

When I heard the teacher (Brother Kelly) died of cancer. I was ******* made up!

incidently, the more the strap got used the less effective it became in my mind. When it became a – raise eyes to heaven and mutter ” here we go again…” it actually looks a bit pathetic. A grown man hitting a kid. It stopped hurting too.

seosamh77

“25 years ago people held doors open and were polite, now you get doors in your face and grunts”

It’s annoys me when people come out with this nonsense…Plenty ignorant people about 25 years ago. and there are plenty polite people about these days.

Exactly. Hence the Kes piece. Written 43 years ago (blimey, that long ago!) and bemoaning the fact that … 25 years earlier everything was so much better.

Schools were much more controlled places back then, so IMO no harm in retrying, if it works then great, if it doesnt then stop again.

Ban all mobile phones too would be a good start.

I remember mixed views on discipline in school. I remember one teacher who used to throw the blackboard wiper VERY hard at kids, but he could still never control the class, I remember teachers who never had a problem and never raised their voice, let alone used discipline. However I do recall though that they could always call the deputy etc in, and they would take said child out for a slap.

I had one games teacher who had a reputation for being very fair, until you messed around. One lad was an arse and always mucked up games lessons for everyone. One day he pushed said teacher too far and ended pinned up against a wall about a foot off the ground with games teachers hand round his neck. The kid was reduced to tears (and slightly chocking) but he never mucked around again.