getonyourbike - my wife (CPEng, CEng) says do an engineering degree and get summer work. She deals with recruiting for her area (Civil i think, who knows doesn't make any sense to me...) and they generally demand degrees.
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Choices when leaving school?
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Posted 5 months ago #
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A levels is the way to go I reckon; even if uni comes later. I wasn't mature enough to deal with the freedom at 18 so I ended up flunking it. I regret that now, but only slightly, as I still managed to bluff my way to a decent job. If I had my time again I'd have gone to uni as a mature student at 21/22, I'd have done even better I think.
Posted 5 months ago # -
My preference is vocational courses at the local college but this seems to be viewed as a dead end and not on the fast track to university.
Has he demonstrated some interest in a trade? If not don't push him into it.
I think you are making the mistake of thinking that there are no options after 6th form other that uni. If he's keen to do A levels then let him. Its only a couple of years and it keeps his options open whilst he gains another couple of years maturity and gives him some more time to sort out what he wants to do with his life. Probably better to do A- levels and decide an academic future is not for him than to go straight into vocational training and then change his mind and go back to try A-levels a couple of years later only to find out its not for him.
Posted 5 months ago # -
I don't want him to finish uni with a qualification and nothing else.
Don't worry he'll have a huge debt and probably an STD!
Seriously though - you want him to "get in the real world" but think you should be the major part in this decision. First intro to real world: you make your own choices and live with the consequences.
If computing is his bag then a degree certainly won't hurt. Its possible to get it/computing jobs without a degree but if he wants to get a job with good career progression - he's going to be competing against other people with the bits of paper. IT in not one job though: support, programming, design, software engineering, systems analyst, hardware, etc ...
Posted 5 months ago # -
(context - I'm a pastoral manager (Senior Tutor - what we call Head of House) in a comprehensive school and part of my role is advising Y11s of their post-16 options).
There's obviously a 'marketing aspect' to this as 11-18 shools need bums on seats and will always try to retain as many students into 6th form as they can, but in my experience good schools also have the best interests of their students at heart and would not fight to hold on to a student who would be better off elsewhere.
From what you say in this thread about 'Jr' my advice would be that as he has a vague area he has ability in but maybe no specific career plans then 'A' levels (or level 3 BTECs) at school would be his best option at the moment. College is fine, but tends (generalisation, but based on experience) to be less personal and even more of a 'factory' than school. Once he gets to the end of 6th form he can then make more considered/focussed choices about his next step.
If his real talents lie in the IT end of things and he is an A-B GCSE student then to give him a range of options within that context later on a reasonable spread of post-16 courses might be -
ICT
Maths
Physics
Media Studies (or Creative Media Production level 3 BTEC)If you have no beef with the school might be worth arranging a meeting with Jr's Form Tutor/Head of Year/Head of House to discuss your concerns and his options. As I said, if the school is even half decent they will give you honest and open advice (as schools get funded for course completion post-16 now they would be stupid to try and retain students that are not suited for 6th form study for whatever reason).
slainte
rob
Posted 5 months ago # -
The two options I'd be suggesting if it were my kid would be:
a) Apprenticeship with OPITO, with a view to getting offshore in instruments, maintenance or production = job for life and worldwide employability.
b) A-levels, then degree + maybe Masters in Petroleum Engineering/Reservoir Simulation/something similar = office-based job for life, worldwide employability and stratospheric earning potential.Granted, money's not everything, and the energy industry might not be his "bag", but I sure as hell wish someone had told me about it when I was choosing my future career.
Posted 5 months ago # -
Join the navy
see the world, get paid for playing sport, learn a trade, get a pension, get some decent mates, get some decent drinking stories under your belt, no need to get in debt, free dental care, free clothes, learn how to look after yourself................promotion, training blah blah blah, not everyones cup of tea I know but worth a look !Posted 5 months ago # -
Just personal experience here, but still...
Technical subjects at a decent uni are HARD, doing something that you're not into will be impossible to do well enough to make it worthwhile. Given the cost of going (~20k/yr) is pretty huge, it's good to explore all options before deciding on a course. I made a rash decision and wasted a couple of years doing something that wasn't right: nowadays that would be another 15k in fees than it cost me.
It's worth investigating other subjects around the computing/engineering/science area. Personally I'm an engineer, but at the age of 18 I had little or no idea what various flavours of engineering involve. It's good to talk to both uni folk and professionals to find out about this kind of stuff.
A good degree makes all the difference when getting a job, and in technical subjects this almost always means a masters. Partly this is due to the increase in degrees, but mostly I think that this is simply due to A-levels becoming progressively easier. An integrated masters (4 yr undergrad) is still pretty well universally the cheapest option as far as i'm aware, and is not badly regarded (at least in my field). Also the better the uni, the better the chances of a decent job afterwards. Kind of obvious, but the amount of fees a uni can charge is not necessarily a reflection of the utility of their degrees.
Also, I didn't like my school and went to an FE college for A-levels (although doing them at the school wasn't an option). College was great: more people, new people, being treated a bit more like an adult and a far greater choice of subjects.
I would also say that not all A-levels are equal: as previously noted, maths and physics are pretty well essential for anything related to computing or engineering. I would recommend at least two, maybe three technical subjects (personal recommendation: not IT or computing, they're in general neither required nor expected and sciences give more options later), and also something just for fun.
[/rant]
Posted 5 months ago # -
but I feel as though the school is brainwashing us into thinking the sixth form/uni option is the only option.
The School would do has they don't want to loose the money
Posted 5 months ago # -
I went down the Apprenticeship route and have never looked, not having a degree has only really affected me once when we were looking at working abroad. Never been an issue in this country.
I have worked my way up in various different companies and now earn a very good salary which is a lot more than most of my mates that went to Uni.
Posted 5 months ago # -
Let him go for A levels if he is interested and has the capability. My kids are all at a similar age. The oldest one leaves school in June and has applied to uni and for apprenticeships (which require her to get an 'A' and 2 'B's at A level). Still coming to terms with the amount of debt (£45k+ apparently is likely- £9k fees and £8k for rent and living per year) she will land herself in if she chooses the uni route. She has been motivated enough to keep as many options open as possible to choose from when she leaves.
I think A levels keep their options more open.
A part time job is also excellent to make them more aware of the sort of jobs you can do if you don't have qualifications as well as giving them their own money, experience in interviews, applying for jobs, being rejected and the satisfaction of someone else valuing what they do enough to pay them money to do it.Posted 5 months ago # -
Thanks again for all your replies, much appreciated
Posted 5 months ago # -
Anyway who gives a monkeys about the future, I had the **** time of my life at Uni, I want my son to do the same if possible. Life's too short to worry about money all the time. Drink, drugs and girls.... glad I had that time.
Posted 5 months ago # -
At your sons age I was academically gifted but pathologically lazy and had no real idea what I wanted to do. I started A levels (Maths, Applied Maths and Geology) but left after a year. I would have gone on to a maths degree and a solid future in accountancy, my sole source of joy being a slightly amusing tie
Instead I completed a 4 year ONC/HNC engineering apprenticeship with Marconi. Found purely by chance from looking at job adverts in the local paper. At the time they also had student apprentices who'd done A levels and were being supported through their degrees. These guys worked outside term time and did a year in the business in the middle of the course. Do you have any large engineering employers locally who offer these opportunities? I remember the wages being pretty savage so your boy may need to stay at home. Our student apprentices had subsidised accommodation though.
The four years gave me a good understanding of what I might enjoy doing because it was split into 3 month placements across a variety of departments (test, test eng, design, QA, purchasing, sw lab). I left to go into audio electronics and now run the test department of a hi-fi company, a job I love doing. I would require a degree to work in R&D but could be supported in this from my current position. 2 people in my department are currently doing day release degrees.
Unless your lad shows interest in a trade, I wouldn't see the vocational courses as a great option. Junkyard is likely to be the best source of unbiased information.
Posted 5 months ago # -
The problem is that unfortunately some industries are closed shops these days unless you have a degree, and probably wealthy parents too. There is almost certainly no-chance of getting a job in media, say, without a degree regardless of the fact that it is a vocational industry. It also means the place is run over with Tarquins and Tabathas whose parents are footing the bill for them to do 12 months plus of free work experience to get their first job for the princely sum of £12k per year. It's not the industry it was when I started out...
Posted 5 months ago # -
Keep him on the conveyor belt until he decides to get off it. It offers the best chances: but they're still just chances. He's got to do the work and want things. It's best to show him as many of the opportunities as you can so he can make the decision himself.
Posted 5 months ago # -
but I feel as though the school is brainwashing us into thinking the sixth form/uni option is the only option.
The School would do has they don't want to loose the money
TBH Schools are not really that mercenary, Yes they want Bums on seats but they don't make a reputation or gain more funding off the back of high dropout rates or poor final marks...
Throwing kids at the wrong courses won't help any school/college in the long run and they know it, They really want capable students doing subjects that interest them..."Success breeds Success" and all that innit...
Posted 5 months ago # -
Keep him on the conveyor belt until he decides to get off it. It offers the best chances
Not always, as shown in my example. If such apprenticeships are available now, then after 4 years you'll be in work, have 4 years of relevant experience and have some academic credits towards a degree, leaving you with 2 more years of full time study if you left and completed a degree. The academic route has positives but at the same point in the timeline you'd be a year further forward in a degree but with far less workplace experience and bigger debts. Better sex life and more booze and drugs possibly. Don't tell your son that OP!
Posted 5 months ago #
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