[Closed] Carbon full sus frames - silly prices

If you have to ask, you're just too poor.

I sure am!

But it's not just complete frames, the Top Fuel 9.9, the S-Works Epic/Stumpjumper etc are now £5500 for a complete bike. It's insane.

You can partly blame the aviation industry, who are doing this like this on the A380, allegedly it is real too:

[img] [/img]

If you want a brand new 2010 S-Works Epic frame at a slightly more sensible price I do have one for sale with forks, front mech and chainset :-)...

DezB, I completely agree 😕

Can they really be that much better than aluminium?!

Nope. It's all in the mind.

No they are not THAT much better, tbh it's a bit like Ti frames, you either love, like or dont even notice the difference in how the frame feels, i have owned Ti and a carbon frame.. both felt the same as Alu at the end of the day... Ok the Ti did feel nice, and it did absorb some shock but imho I think it was the build quality not the material. Ok carbon can be repaired easily and cheaply, dont corode, always look nice even with cable rub and can be pretty light.......... but, Worth 2k + for just a frame

hell no

storck adrenalin 1.7 - crazy price

although i must say, technically the most advanced frame i've ever seen.

it doesn't have a pivot by the rear axle, it uses the flex in the rear end to make up the 100mm travel. can't wait to get my hands on it!!!

it doesn't have a pivot by the rear axle, it uses the flex in the rear end to make up the 100mm travel. can't wait to get my hands on it!!!

Like the Yeti?

is that what yeti's use too?

i must say i'm damned impressed.

Saving weight = saving money in aeroplanes so it makes sense, seems to be the other way around with bike frames!

My Salsa Big Mama frame uses flex also and has no rear pivot. Very happy with it i am too. 🙂

And it cost me less than a grand to get it from the states.

New bike prices are getting out of control. Around £2500 used to get you a very good bike (and still can) but there seems to be a big surge in the amount and £3k, £4k and £5k+ bikes on the market now. Hardly a great investment as they are generally only notionally better than bikes half their cost and they won't get anywhere near decent money 2nd hand as people won't pay big bucks for 2nd hand (and in particular carbon) as they have no warranty.

but there seems to be a big surge in the amount and £3k, £4k and £5k+ bikes on the market now

but you don't see very many of them out on the trails. I only know of 2 carbon frames in the group of people I ride with, and neiter of them get ridden very often....

Cannondale Scalpel's also use flattened stays as a 'pivot'. The only Storck which I would say is anything other than very ordinary is the Organic, which is an awful, awful bike. Most of their stuff is heavily overpriced German tat trading on the perception of a high end brand. IMO. Enjoy the Adrenalin!

Storck Organic Light:

[img] [/img]

Pass the bucket please...

I'd sooner have an Ibis Mojo than any of them.
And its 2/3 of the price.

And its 2/3 of the price.

£1950 for the standard and £2300 for the SL? Seems to be par for the course...

[url= http://www.leisurelakesbikes.com/product/lapierrezesty314bike2010.aspx?&id=12897 ]This[/url] complete bike is cheaper than all those frames (except the Yeti).
Looks just as good and I bet it rides just as good.
[url= http://www.leisurelakesbikes.com/images/ProductImages/Bikes/Others/10LapZesty314.jp g" target="_blank">http://www.leisurelakesbikes.com/images/ProductImages/Bikes/Others/10LapZesty314.jp g"/> [/img][/url]

You've got to love spaghetti marketing!

Throw a price against the wall and see if it sticks. Seems [i]we[/i] are the mugs keeping the market moving!

no no no!!!

read into the vvc process of producing carbon frames and all the measures they go to and you'll soon see why storcks aren't just 'another' carbon frame.

Why are we doing this? You could buy 20 of these for one Mojo frame:

[img] [/img]

We all know it will be horrible, but this isn't really the sport for justifying things. If you don't want to pay >£2000 for a frame, don't. It's not really that difficult.

and bringing the conversation full circle....

the above has a pivotless rear end!!

I'm sure this has all been done before? Or was i just dreaming prices didn't go up last year as well?

[i]I'd sooner have an Ibis Mojo than any of them.
And its 2/3 of the price.

£1950 for the standard and £2300 for the SL? Seems to be par for the course... [/i]

Mojo frame+shock is £1799.99
Mojo SL frame+shock is £1999.99

and while i'm at it

Tranny is £1299.99

cheers
ran@2pure

[i]Mojo frame+shock is £1799.99
Mojo SL frame+shock is £1999.99[/i]

Cheap as f&*%ing chips then eh? Shame they are so ugly 😉

cheap at twice the price

One of the few things to come down for 2010 it would seem. Good to see. Also a 4 year old design now I guess, whilst most of the other frames mentioned in the OP are virtually brand new. If that has an effect, perceived 'value' and all that.

After the Top Fuel 9.9 I'd sooner have the Mojo than any of the other things that've been mentioned!

mathewshotbolt, I take it your getting a stork then? I'm sorry to be the one to tell you this, but....................

pivotless rear end - has been doen 100's of times before....

yeti - asr-sl
trek - all of their faux bar full susers under 5" had then a few years back.
gary fisher - the sugar had a flexing aluminium rear end with no issues!
Cannondale - scapell had no main pivot or chainstay pivot.
Steel and Ti softails have been arround forever.

As for stork having some wonder carbon layup procss, pull the other one, VVC under one name or another has been arround since the dawn of composites. Trek for example have been calling the same process OLVC sice their Y-frames (and probably longer, but thats the first one I can remember)! Even my windsurfers mast form the 80's was cured in a vacum bag!

You could patent the idea of puting frames in the oven the wrong way up, it would have no effect on the frame, but becasue you've identified something unique you can give the whole process a snazzy acronym that makes it sound like its better than the same process being done by everyone else.

Trek introduced OCLV (optimum compaction low void) frames in 1992 IIRC.

As I said before Storck have to be one of the best examples of a brand known for their image, people seem to think their bikes are amazing, but in fact they're mostly (some of the Fascenarios are very light) rather heavy and nothing special. If you look at their components they're all cheap stuff rebadged and doubled in price! Guess it's helped by being sold by Posh Bikes in the UK, so most of them have stupidly high price tags and are dripping in exotica!

That Organic Light was pretty light 7 years ago, but it's not changed, and 5.5lbs for a 110mm travel frame just doesn't really cut it now. But they're still charging £3500 for a frame. Crazy.

with the top end storcks, the carbon is actully crushed round a solid aluminium former which is then electrolitically dissolved from inside.

when they are cooling they use tensiometers on crucial parts of the frame and if any one point is cooling too fast then they add some heat.

the organic light was designed on the porsche design computer. i'll almost bet my beer that it has a better strength to weight than most other frames out there. thats why its name is 'organic' the frame's parameters (stem, post, wheels etc) where inputted into the computer and it went from there.

it would take me far too longer time to go into how storcks aren't just badge engineered (agreed though, their parts are) but call andy or wally at poshbikes if you want firm facts.

thinking about it, what parts are re-badged and doubled in price?

the power arm cranks, the custom stock 69mm deep carbon rims or the array of carbon forks that they do?

the only things which might be badged are the bars/stems. some of the earlier ones were produced by tange but the stems certainly aren't an off-the-peg product as the faces of the steerer clamp is faced and the faceplate has a storck logo forged into it.

mmmm ZESTY [img] [/img]

ngee20, you old cynic, you
I have to say, I've noticed that whenever someone at Storck/ Poshbikes so much as takes a dump, then there's a 'news story' about it in a Future bike magazine- especially Cycling Plus.
Better than viral marketing?

I wouldn't recommend anyone phones posh bikes let alone deals with them. Run by tossers IME.

Andy's a good bloke IME, but you need a good few hours before you phone them, he can talk! Sooner not deal with them mind!

[url= http://www.poshbikes.com/product.php?id=48 ]These[/url] Hope XC hubs are a good example of Storck's 'engineering'. Considering that price hasn't been updated in a long time, and they're already a fair bit more than Hope XC hubs were, and actually more than Pro IIs now are, whilst being wildly inferior!

i'm with you on that njee, the hubs were hope but for more money although the poshbikes site hasn't been updated for over a year.

check the rest of their site though, those hubs are way obsolete and they now produce all of their own products

* check the rest of the storck site* - is what i meant

Carbon is expensive at the momment partly due to Airbus. The A380 is made from carbon to reduce weight to a *will actually take off level*, but now Airbus are trying to save more weight on the whole aircraft to save fuel and reduce costs (makes sense if you ask me) So as seen in the pic above they are using it for anything they can and taking up a lot of resources in the process. It will get worse too as Boeing are to begin production of the new superliner soon i believe which will take up more resources.

the organic light was designed on the porsche design computer

And all other bikes are designed on the back of an envelope? Well maybe ragley and on-one might be, but the big brands using more complicated tubes will be doing thousands's of hours in FEA)

the carbon is actully crushed round a solid aluminium former which is then electrolitically dissolved from inside.

So........
As I said before, the idea of squeezing the layup to more evenly distribute the resin is as old as modern composite technology, even the bamboo bike off here was vacum bagged to compact the material over bits of aluminium and wood (admitedly the aluminium and wood is serving a slighly different purpous in his bike).

110mm and 5.5lb, even the orange 5 must be getting near that weight now, if not plenty of others are, and they'r used for a lot more than XC?

I'm not knocking stork, I'd level the same criticism at any manufactuer trying to convince me that their product realy was somehow a quantum leap foreward form what was possible last year. If we believed everthing we're told, shimano brakes would be fitted to A380's, and F1 would be building its cars from the offcuts outside the stork factory.

As it is, A380's use their own brakes, and F1 chasis' are deceptively simple structures.

It will get worse too as Boeing are to begin production of the new superliner soon i believe which will take up more resources.

The Boeing 787 'Dreamliner' is already well under production and is contributing beautifully to the expense of carbon for everyone else!

As for Storck's process of forming around aluminium which is then magically removed sounds like proper marketing spiel! I note the Adrenalin Carbon still weighs 2250g without shock, so substantially over 5lbs for a frame.

I honestly do hope you enjoy it, but don't kid yourself that it's the world's most technologically advanced frame!

Dez, just buy a load of those carbon effect patches for cable rub, and cover your frame in them - job done!

Ahem.......IGMC

Bought this lot for £1500.

[img] [/img]

Built it up with some nice kit for £2700 total. 6" travel and 28lb. Ok, there's no fancy badge, but it's a bloody good bike.