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1. coffeeking - Member

   Stoner - no i'm not, wanting to go and shoot some food is taking pleasure in killing unless you have no other choice. The end result is the same, I agree, and somewhere along the line it has to have been killed, but the desire to end somethings life is the difficult bit here.

   ZE - I have killed and eaten my own food, many times in the past (fish), I have a very great respect for animals. But I don't take enjoyment from the process. I can't imagine how you could. Whether it's more humane than the slaughterhouse isn't at question here (that depends how good you are and whether they do their job right). And whether you scored fewer than you saw/aimed for is totally irrelevant, their chance to escape means nothing in this question. The point is you have a choice between killing something yourself and not killing something yourself. By choosing the former it does not mean you have more respect or take more responsibility, it just means you can enjoy your sport (which is clearly the primary factor here) and can then pay lipservice to responsibility and attempt to take a moral high ground as a cover story for your lust for putting lead through somethings head.

   Sure the deer had a nicer life, I won't argue that. I'd like to see all my food have that sort of life.

   You could liken it to being an executioner (in more ways than one) - he might be doing the country a service and it might be nicer than letting people rot in jail for life, but if he loved the process of sharpening his knife and watching the body twitch you'd think he was a nut job. I think people who like hunting fall pretty close to that line.

   Posted 2 years ago #
2. TandemJeremy - Member

   I shall defend ratty a bit here.

   Deer stalking - the deer need to be culled as they are vermin that destroy habitats and eat everything in sight causing serious erosion. Deer stalking is as humane a process as is possible in killing animals. One moment its grazing away happily - the next it has a high velocity bullet in it and its dead - and the deer get eaten.

   compare that to fox hunting - where the animal is deliberately chased for as long as possible - faster dogs could be set on it but thats no fun.

   There is also a serious skill factor in deer stalking.

   Coffeeking - you don't take pleasure from fishing then? Its a damn sight crueller than deer stalking

   Posted 2 years ago #
3. coffeeking - Member

   TJ - Ratty needs no defence, he's intelligent enough to do it himself and I'm sure he has his beliefs.

   Whether they need culling or not isn't really important. And that's questionable too, but I accept it as-is. I also think it is a lot more humane than fox hunting, totally agree. I also know (I like guns, I love shooting in a range) there's a skill to it. But as you all seem to be missing, it's the enjoyment of ending somethings life that isn't so nice.

   At the end of the day you're choosing to kill something. Maybe it needs killing, maybe it's better than buying it in Tesco, maybe it takes years of skills practice to do. But to WANT to kill it, odd.

   [edit]

   Fishing - No, I used to do it because it was what my family did to pass some time as a kid/teenager. I rapidly found that the process of dragging the fish in and ending its life was not not fun or pleasant for it and that as I didn't enjoy doing that I didn't want to continue doing it, so I stopped. I found anglers fell into two vague catagories - those who were fishing because they liked to "beat the fish" in some way, prove their abilities to catch it and those who were just fishing for a living. Those who were fishign for a living seemed to have more appreciation for the fish and less of a BS macho drive and blood lust than those who were for sport.

   Posted 2 years ago #
4. TandemJeremy - Member

   Coffeeking - no I am not missing the point at all. Did you enjoy your fishing? Now thats cruel. Draging an animal around by a hook in its mouth.

   Why not let people enjoy the stalking - it provides huge amounts of money charging people to do it and its very controlled.

   Edit - missed your edit - I agree its very bizzare to want to do it but I see no great harma s the deer need to be killed somehow - unless you want the entire landscape to be a treeless eroded mess

   Posted 2 years ago #
5. Zulu-Eleven - Member

   Coffeeking, Its reflective of the gradual urbanisation of the country and subsequent removal from the act of killing that you think its i) OK to get someone to do it for you, but not do it yourself, and ii) should be some kind of taboo, evil act that we'd rather not think about, let alone enjoy.

   If you enjoy eating meat, then you are directly enjoying the death of an animal for your own personal gratification, whether you get someone else to do the nasty stuff for you or not, its still all part of it.

   Personally, I love deer, its been a lifelong passion, and I get as much enjoyment from seeing them out in the fields on a bike ride as I do from spending a day stalking - I'd put forward that most people like seeing cute little lambs gamboling around in the fields, and also enjoy eating it, but they don't want to connect that with the act of killing

   Thats a cultural taboo thats entirely to do with not wanting to take responsibility for ending that life, a societal disconnect that cheapens death, and makes cheap meat something thats acceptable in the shops (£2.99 chickens anyone) society likes to get someone to do the dirty work for them, its not that it morally or ethically shouldn't be acceptable to enjoy killing, its just that we prefer not to think about the fact that someone does it for us.

   [edit]
   Perhaps the question should be, if you don't enjoy killing fish, should it really be acceptable, morally, for you to eat the fish - why is it morally acceptable to get someone to drag fish out the sea in a net and kill them for money, just so that you can take enjoyment from eating it (its not a necessity, humans can thrive on a vegetarian diet) If anything, the moral vaccum is on the side of those who cannot do it themselves, but enjoy reaping the benefits!

   Posted 2 years ago #
6. nonk - Member

   i used to think you should be able to kill something if you want to eat meat.
   however whats wrong with this: i dont fancy killing this would you do it for me? yeah give it here.

   how society works i think.

   Posted 2 years ago #
7. coffeeking - Member

   TJ - just finished an edit, see above.

   ZE - I'm aware of that argument but it doesnt fly with me. How does loving an animal marry up to shooting it in the head? "oooh thats a lovely deer, I respect it deeply - BANG - woo that was fun!". I'm fully aware that every piece of meat I eat came from a dead animal that was happily going about its life a few weeks before it hit my plate, I'm not that naive. I buy eggs that are open-air eggs (not free range/shed based ones) from my local farm. I buy more expensive chickens that I hope (you can't be sure) have been raised in nice places with space. I'm aware that my need for food requires death. I just don't take enjoyment from it.

   Letting someone else do it in a "kind" way does not mean I don't accept responsibility for it, or mean that somehow I am sheilding myself from reality. It just means that I dont *enjoy* killing things.

   Perhaps the question should be, if you don't enjoy killing fish, should it really be acceptable, morally, for you to eat the fish - why is it morally acceptable to get someone to drag fish out the sea in a net and kill them for money, just so that you can take enjoyment from eating it (its not a necessity, humans can thrive on a vegetarian diet) If anything, the moral vaccum is on the side of those who cannot do it themselves, but enjoy reaping the benefits!

   Why does the act of killing the fish yourself make it more acceptable to eat it? But that distracting question aside (as it isnt the point in question) - why do you enjoy killing deer? When it boils down to it you just enjoy ending somethings life. You didn't wake up one morning and think you needed to change the way you sourced food.

   Anyway, I have work to do. I sit somewhere on the fence (despite playing devils advocate here) but I'm not convinced its good to enjoy killing things, regardless of whether its a right or wrong way to get food. Vegetarianism isn't ideal (I've yet to meet a veggie who wasn't ill and pale looking!) and I believe we are animals designed to eat animals as well as veg, but I struggle solely with the enjoyment factor.

   Posted 2 years ago #
8. backhander - Member

   That's right. I've killed women and children. I've killed just about everything that walks or crawls at one time or another

   Bill Munny

   Posted 2 years ago #
9. GrahamS - Member

   > I absolutely hate killing things needlessly.
   > I can comfortably catch, kill, gut and eat a fish.

   Something doesn't quite stack up there.

   Only because you skipped the bit where I said I eat meat.
   I don't consider killing something to eat it as "needless".

   Likewise I don't have a problem Zulu-Eleven killing those deer if they were eaten afterwards (or used in some other useful way). But if it was purely for the "fun" of watching them die then I personally find that a little distasteful. And a bit odd.

   Posted 2 years ago #
10. Zulu-Eleven - Member

    CK - no, you don't have a "need" for meat, its a preference.

    90% of us would say its enjoyable to eat a nice piece of steak/venison/fish - thats directly gaining personal enjoyment from the (needless?) death of an animal.

    to say that is OK, whereas gaining enjoyment from completing the cycle is fooling yourself.

    Posted 2 years ago #
11. coffeeking - Member

    whereas gaining enjoyment from completing the cycle is fooling yourself.

    I'm fooling noone, to assume I was would suggest I was not aware of some part of the process.

    Read above for more detail.

    My problem is not the eating/killing, it's enjoying doing it. I've yet to meet a hunting type who didn't enjoy seeing a bit of blood spatter and ripping guts out.

    Posted 2 years ago #
12. nonk - Member

    if you wanted to join a hunt when i was a youth you had to be blooded.
    have the stuff rubbed on your face.ffs.
    luckily i never wanted to join one.

    Posted 2 years ago #
13. Zulu-Eleven - Member

    didn't enjoy seeing a bit of blood spatter and ripping guts out.

    And what, EXACTLY is morally wrong with that?

    its part of the process of making an animal into a nice tasty piece of meat - if its part of the process, then there is no moral difference between enjoying that, and enjoying the fruits of that labour - you cannot have one without the other

    Posted 2 years ago #
14. trawler - Member

    Not this week,too windy.

    Posted 2 years ago #
15. wysiwyg - Member

    No one ever admits to kill things for the enjoyment of it - the thrill of the hunt, with no intention of eating what they have killed.

    Well, i will.

    I shoot some things to eat, and other things like Crows and Magpies, simply because I can.

    Yes theyre designated as a pest as they take sheep eyes, young birds etc, but theyre not that big of a problem. I do it simply because I enjoy it.

    Now I do draw a line, you can shoot Rooks and Jays, but I choose not to, Rooks spend most of their lives eating Leather Jackets and Grubs, and Jays acorns etc. I often have the opportunity, but couldnt tell you the last time I shot either.

    Posted 2 years ago #
16. DezB - Member

    Christ, the shit my dog (or should I say "I") got on here when I posted that she had nibbled a deer's cheek.
    Someone put Zulu-Eleven on a lead!

    

    Posted 2 years ago #
17. dave_rudabar - Member

    I couldn't kill the mouse that our cat brought in last night, just gave it back to the cat & kicked her out with it!
    I've thought many times about getting rid of the cat coz she's such an effective hunter & it stresses me out that she's killing off the rodent population from the nearby fields. She nearly got a grouse the other week FFS!

    Posted 2 years ago #
18. wysiwyg - Member

    A grouse!

    Where do you live?

    Posted 2 years ago #
19. Junkyard - Member

    wysiwyg I really worry that anyone can enjoy death and killing. It is just not normal behaviour.

    Z-11 - A bit better than wysiwyg but to kill for sport is something most people are uncomfortabke with. It is not because we dont live in the countryside it is because we are not murdering b@stards.

    I agree most people are hypocritical on the issue and are happy to let others kill their food for them despite the fact they could never kill it themselves. However neither of you are discussing the food chain you are both enjoying killing.

    Imagine I did this to free range MTB'ers who have had good lifes...you know better than people in Africa ... and I just shot them as they enjoyed a day in the trail because well I can. I will call it sport as I may miss. You would rightly think I am a nutter. You only have to change the prey to get yourself.

    Posted 2 years ago #
20. coffeeking - Member

    If you can't see exactly what's morally wrong with killing animals for fun then it simply means your morals are different from other peoples, and I would say you're morally wrong, you have the right to your opinion. I think it's sick to derive pleasure from the act of killing things, you don't, thats fine, but dont get upset when I say it, and don't accuse me of being naive or fooling myself - im fully aware of the food chain and natural ways of life. Ive less of a problem with people like nomadic cultures who have no source of food other than that that they kill, enjoying and celebrating the kill as it means they can eat - there's a difference, they have no choice.

    wysiwyg - humans are pests, wrecking the planet and making the lives of other animals a mess AND they know they're doing it. Get the sniper rifle out.

    Posted 2 years ago #

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