Are New Forks better? « Singletrack Forum

Bike Forum

Are New Forks better?

36 posts & 23 voices | Started 9 months ago by Taz | Latest reply from ooOOoo

Tags:

No tags yet.

Pages: 12 Next »

Taz - Member

Than a newly serviced set from say 3 years ago?

I have just swapped from RS Revelations back to RS Pike (air) and I would be very hard pressed to say that the Revs were any better. Lighter - yes, better lockout - yes, but in terms of doing what a suspension fork is meant to do - soak up bumps, track the ground, steer, etc, I think the Pikes if anything are better (ok maybe my expectations were lower)

Would love the mag to do some sort of blind test of some of the main forks vs newly serviced 3 year old equivalents.

No doubt things have moved on over teh years but we must be reaching serious diminshing returns now?

Posted 9 months ago #
z1ppy - Member

Umm, so both forks used RS Motion control damper... the same one they've been using/making for years?

Why did you expect it to have a different performance?

Posted 9 months ago #
FunkyDunc - Member

Well I've just got a new Fox Fork and before that had a 2005 Fox Fork. I've not notice any difference in performance apart from the new one has a lockout.

Posted 9 months ago #
Klunk - Member

they cost more now so ergo they must be better.

Posted 9 months ago #
Taz - Member

I didn't particularly

My point (question) is - have any of the top brands improved markedly in the last few years

The marketing BS would have you believe they have transformed. I reckon most of us would be hard pressed to tell any difference?

Posted 9 months ago #
chakaping - Member

Yeah they have improved loads if you get the ones with the posh dampers, eg rock shox blackbox.

Posted 9 months ago #
z1ppy - Member

+1 to chapkaping..

Motion control was the most top model a few years back, now the blackbox damper is king and is much better. Other upgrade would be stiffer body (power bulges) compared to the same fork 3 years ago (Rev's not Pike), you pike was probably hugely stiffer.

you also don't say how the pike's were better.. care to expand?

EDIT:

The marketing BS would have you believe they have transformed

No, I've never read that or believed that for any fork, it's been gradual improvements since the the leap forward that happened when SRAM bought Rockshox.

Posted 9 months ago #
peachos - Member

power bulge...LOL!

RC3 though...

Posted 9 months ago #
thisisnotaspoon - Member

The service probably made them better than new as the bushings would be perfectly sized, not just within production line tollerances?

My Sektors (basicly the pike damper) don't feel quite as good as pikes, but they're new and still beddign in. Considerably lighter though!

Posted 9 months ago #
FunkyDunc - Member

I still think my PACE RC36's from 1996 are just as good as any fork today, just not as much travel...

Posted 9 months ago #
z1ppy - Member

Peachos, though I know the term does bring interesting ideas to mind it is an offical RS term..

Posted 9 months ago #
bjj.andy.w - Member

[quote]FunkyDunc - Member
I still think my PACE RC36's from 1996 are just as good as any fork today, just not as much travel...
POSTED 13 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST
[quote]
Not as much travel as in seized

Posted 9 months ago #
Taz - Member

z1ppy - I am not sure I can expand on my comment. I simply could not see much, if any differnce, in the two forks performance

My point is that your average trail rider would not notice a difference on their local rides (Beyond placebo) with new forks vs some a few years old (assuming they were in good working order)

I think what you are saying is that at the top of the range things continue to evolve and as that trickles down we may see the differnce.

Posted 9 months ago #
z1ppy - Member

and I'd agree, & why I still own a pair of forks from 2004.

Though I would fix your statement:
My point is that your average trail rider would not notice a difference on their local rides with new forks vs some a few years old of the same level.

As I'd love to swap some 2006 Motion Control QR Reba's, for the 2010/11 20mm Blackbox Reba's & know I'd (& most ppl) feel a difference.

Posted 9 months ago #
mboy - Member

As z1ppy has said, you're comparing two similar travel forks (if one slightly lighter) with the same damping system. You'll struggle to tell any difference as long as they've been setup well.

Having just bought a 120mm Reba with Black Box damping though, it's a significant step up in performance from Motion Control. I've had a few Pikes, Reba's and Revelations in the last several years, all perfectly good forks. The Black Box is a step up though, it really is. No placebo effect here either, you really notice how it doesn't spike on bigger hits and how it deals with repeated stutter bumps better. Problem is my fork is fitted to a hardtail, so the extra perrmance is almost redundant as the back end doesn't move!

Posted 9 months ago #
LoCo - Member

If they have blackbox or FIT dampers, new seal technology, Kashima coating they will be better, than the older Moco's, O/B dampers e.t.c

Posted 9 months ago #
Northwind - Member

You're understating the weight difference IMO, new Revelation is amazingly light considering its travel and stiffness.

But yep- you've bought a fork with the same tech in it, so it's no surprise. Blackbox is noticably better than standard MoCo. The higher end rebound damper in the RL and RLT is supposed to be worth the upgrade too though I've not tried one of those.

Posted 9 months ago #
Scienceofficer - Member

I'm running a 2005 Nixon thats easily as good plush wise, but markedly better damped than my old pike with MoCo. Its possibly not quite as stiff, but the Nixon is stiff enough.

Improvements in the last few years have been more about weight than anything else IMO - Blackbox moCo has been around for years, its just had a chance to trickle down the range a bit.

For example, my Nixon is an air model and weighs 4.2lbs for its 145mm (not even that really) travel. Comparatively, an RS revelation is 150mm and 3.6 to 3.8lbs. 0.5lbs improvement in weight on a comparable fork.

Posted 9 months ago #
randomjeremy - Member

Just bought a set of 2012 floats with the gold stuff and posh cartridges and they are miles better than my old 2008 floats.

Posted 9 months ago #
peachos - Member

z1ppy - Member
Peachos, though I know the term does bring interesting ideas to mind it is an offical RS term..

yeah i know that - mine wasn't a schoolboy LOL, more a LOL at the BS marketing of the 'power bulge'.

Posted 9 months ago #
Trimix - Member

I had some Maverick forks on my old bike 6 years ago - now got some 2011 Fox Talas forks on my new bike - the difference is incredible.

Massive difference in all respects.

Posted 9 months ago #
boriselbrus - Member

I think you'll find that every year - in common with every other bike component - they all become 30% stiffer.

And 30% more expensive.

Posted 9 months ago #
peachos - Member

I had some Maverick forks on my old bike 6 years ago - now got some 2011 Fox Talas forks on my new bike - the difference is incredible.

Massive difference in all respects.

because you had sh*t forks in the first place perhaps?!

Posted 9 months ago #
Trimix - Member

Peachos - yes, but when they came out they were marketed as being brilliant and the tests in the magazines all claimed them as great. Remember how all the testers gave the Whyte 46 10/10 and hailed it the new do-it-all mountain bike when it came out.

Still it is difficult to cut throught the marketing BS, comments from people who service forks, like Loco, are welcome insights as to what is really happeing inside them.

Posted 9 months ago #
mcboo - Member

My new Canyon came with DT Swiss XRM100 Twinshots. Now I dont know a whole lot about suspension but from the get-go these were so much more smooth and comfortable to ride at speed. Can only compare them to my Fox Talas 2009s, I know some folk think TALAS arent as smooth as non adjustables so just FWIW.

Posted 9 months ago #
CaptainMainwaring - Member

Changed my air Pike 454 U-turns for Rev 150 RLT TI dual position with the blackbox damping about 8 weeks ago. Comments:

* They are noticeably lighter
* They seem plusher and better damped with better small bump sensitivity
* The dual position air is brilliant. It was always too much hassle to wind down the Pikes but now it's a quick flick

So, yes big difference

Posted 9 months ago #
PJM1974 - Member

I've a set of 2006 Pike 454 Air forks and a 2010 Revelation Race Air too.

Comparisons? The Revs are a huge chunk lighter but don't feel anywhere near as stiff. Oh and the Revs have a bar mounted lockout.

And that's pretty much it...They're both Motion Control forks, both 20mm bolt through and both black.

I could say something like "Of course, Rockshox's motion control damper doesn't cut the mustard on the choppy stuff" but that would be a complete lie, for I've never felt that my forks are holding me back or slowing me down.

Posted 9 months ago #
cookeaa - Member

Define "Better", it could mean anything I think you need to judge them against some sort of criteria:

1- Suspension Performance - absorbing bumps controling the fork motion with damping?
2- Oher Non-suspension features - Lockout, travel/rideheight adjustment, anything which is supposed to help the rider get about more efficiently between the fun bits...
3- Weight - how/light/heavy are they?
4- Serviceability/maintainability - user serviceability/RTB only? - cost/availability of spares?
5- Cost of purchase - how much the things cost to buy in the first place...

In my opinion I think modern forks are not really that much better than those of 5-6 years ago really, that might sound like a rather sweeping statement (I'm sure there are exceptions) but lets face it there's not much out there today that is totally "New"...

Yes available travel has crept up (Although not everyone needs more travel) and features like lockout and travel adjustment have become more common but these sort of things have been available for over a decade now under one guise or another, there have not been any Quantum leaps, just incremental changes.
In fact not all modern forks offer that much useful adjustment of damping some still require a change in oil weights or additional "tuning" from stock hardly idea..

Modern forks do seem to be marginally stiffer and lighter, this is mainly due to more sensible placement of material in parts like lowerleg braces, and larger Dia Stanchions becoming more common, again though it'sbeen baby steps and a comparable fork from 5-6 years ago won't be a million miles away from current models in this respect...

In terms of Servicability I think things seem to have taken quite a step backwards, doing anything more than apply an approved lube to the stanchion of an RS/fox/Marz fork and then post it to TF/mojo every 6-8 months and if the Mag/markeing/forums BS is to be believed you'd be ensuring your own death, people don't seem keen on taking forks apart themselves to service anymore, I can't really blame them though when you look at the eyewatering sums they've stumped up for the latest greates fork I can see why you'd not want to chance ballsing up a £600+ fork...

I think the stupidly high cost of them is the biggest black mark against current forks, I'd rather see good, well specced, servicable forks where the features and weight maybe haven't moved on but manufacturers have managed to bring RRP down, rather than the current state of play where the Marketing Dept come up with a new Acronym for a pretty familiar concept an bang another £100 on the shop price...

Posted 9 months ago #
veedubba - Member

+1 for Cookieaa's comments.

If you want to service your own kit and it's within your capabilities, why should you feel penalised to do it? A standard service of a good performing fork shouldn't be outside the realms of the home mechanic due to proprietry tools or hard-to-find consumable items. Buuuut, if you're not comfortable doing that, I think you've never been in a better position to choose a suitably qualified person to perform a service.

Give me a simple, reliable, home-servicable fork over a costly and over-complicated item any day. I've owned Maverick, Magura, RS, Manitou, Pace, Marzocchi and Fox and of those the Mavericks (I'm excluding the silly elastomer forks...) win hands down on servicability and were a good fork IMO, despite what some people may say. However, I've not spent a great deal of time on anything newer than 2010 models so can't comment on any huge performance changes since then.

Posted 9 months ago #
mboy - Member

I had some Maverick forks on my old bike 6 years ago - now got some 2011 Fox Talas forks on my new bike - the difference is incredible.
Massive difference in all respects.

All I can say is your Mavericks were setup wrong. That's not a slight on you, they come set from the factory unsuitable for most riders, but set them up properly and they're still incredible now. My DUC's still easily outperform any other comparable forks I've ridden (so anything up to 150mm of travel and mid weight), I've not ridden the current Fox 2011 forks granted but have ridden many fox's from previous years. My Mavericks just worked better, simple as that...

The setup can be a lot of trial and error and you have to open the fork up to do most of it, but they are almost infinitely adjustable one way or another. The external rebound adjusted does naff all mind!

Posted 9 months ago #
Trimix - Member

I found they had no compression and no rebound - the knob for rebound did nothing I could notice. How did you set them up then ? I striped and serviced mine a few times, and other than changing the oil weight and chanaging the position of the oil flow guide / washer I couldnt see how to affect its performance.

They were light, but dived too easily for me.

Posted 9 months ago #
jameso - Member

they're a bit better, but a lot more expensive... lighter and stiffer is the main gain imo, the damping's better on some but that's getting expensive and well into diminishing returns level.

how good does a fork need to be? i know a top-end fork damping works brilliantly these days, but has it really changed my riding since the Z1 BAM was the fork to have? not much, no. maybe in some corners or steppy slo-mo descents, yes, a bit - but a rigid fork can work well there too.

call me a luddite but i yawn when the chase for better suspension gets into proper damping-tech. stiff, reliable + home-servicable, smooth, good-enough damping to keep the wheel on the ground and not too divey -that'll do.

120mm Reba Maxles all the way for me these days.

Posted 9 months ago #
ransos - Member

I changed my Pace RC41s for Fox F120 RLCs. The Fox forks are much better IMO, and there's a better chance of them staying bonded into the crown and not requiring a £250 repair...

Posted 9 months ago #
PJM1974 - Member

I bought a set of Pace RC40s in 2005...

...the damping was excellent, shame about everything else. The travel adjust broke three times, the dial seized or flew off, the seals were inadequate and they quickly got very notchy. On the plus side, they had carbon legs which looked nice.

The Pikes I replaced them with a year later were drama free. Nothing broke (although the air cap and rebound adjuster fell off) but they remained absolutely reliable. They're still in use and feel great.

All that's happened since is that the price has sprinted (as opposed to crept) up.

Posted 9 months ago #
mboy - Member

I found they had no compression and no rebound - the knob for rebound did nothing I could notice. How did you set them up then ? I striped and serviced mine a few times, and other than changing the oil weight and chanaging the position of the oil flow guide / washer I couldnt see how to affect its performance.
They were light, but dived too easily for me.

Yeah the rebound knob doesn't do much, it's a bit of a fine tune knob rather than full on slow to rabidly fast like on Rockshox forks.

Setup on them totally depends on your body weight. I'm lucky in that the standard shim stack seems to work well for me (at around 12 stone in my kit), the standard oil that comes in them though... Well there seems no definitive answer as to what weight it is (or should be) or where it's come from. I stripped mine after only 4 rides from new, rebuilt with quality fully synthetic oils from Putoline (think I used a mix of 5 and 10W to get approx 7W for the damper) and it has definitely made a big difference.

The diving is annoying, this is down to an overly linear air spring though. As standard to make sure the fork doesn't bottom out all the time you have to run about 15% sag which is too little. The tip is to inject about 10-15cc of fork oil into the air spring thus reducing its volume. I can now run with 30% sag happily making for a very active fork, but yet still can't bottom out on the biggest hits as the fork is now very nicely progressive. Anybody who wants a go on my Maverick fork is more than welcome to try it out, having ridden a number of them that do ride awfully I'd confidently say mine is one of the better setup forks out there.

jameso makes a very good point on the user serviceability side of things being important. For most of us, for most of our riding needs, this is more important than having the latest all singing all dancing fork for sure... And also why my Maverick forks aren't going anywhere soon as they are the easiest fork in the world to work on!

Posted 9 months ago #

RSS feed for this topic

Pages: 12 Next »

Reply »

You must log in to post.

Singletrack Mountain Bike Magazine

Bike Forum

Are New Forks better?

Reply »

Don't miss…

Singletrack

Website & Forums

Exits