I was staggered by the response of a work colleague today when I started discussing the ‘Raspberry Pi’ with him, you may not be familliar with the Raspberry Pi cutting to the chase its basically a small computing device based on similar technology to what you would find in a smart phone intended as a low cost way to get people developing software and/or devices (primarily for those in education, but not exclusively), think of it a bit like a more conscious effort to emulate the effect that the spectrum of the 80s had in creating a generation of programmers… I think this is a laudable goal personally..

He could not get his head around the concept of someone wanting top buy an “Incomplete” and “Underpowered” computer to learn and develop on when they could get “Something with windows 7 from PC world for only a couple of hundred quid more”…

Does anyone else see the world like this fella?
I mean growing up (and still to a fair extent) I constantly took things apart to understand, repair or ‘improve’ them, do people just buy black boxes of ‘technology’ with zero desire to understand it?

Has ‘looking under the hood’ to borrow an american term become a bit of a luddite thing?

Has ‘looking under the hood’ to borrow an american term become a bit of a luddite thing?

Yes

Its sad.

My neighbour was a mech-eng his whole life. The experiences and knowledge have are phenomenal. Im more IT based myself but he can talk for hours about different thread pitches. how to tell what is what and amazingly how to modify them to do different things. E.G modifying a normal tap so it can be used as a cutting tap.

Most people just don’t seem interested in knowing what happens behind the scenes.

Most people just don’t seem interested in knowing what happens behind the scenes.

Most people have never been bothered with what goes on behind the scenes. Why would they be? Especially now, where pretty much everything “just works”.

Does anyone else see the world like this fella?

Yes, most people. But not ALL people, because then stuff that “just works” would never get built.

Some people like to “get under the bonnet” and some – maybe most – don’t. The great thing is that in this day and age things just work, so if you have no interest in getting under the bonnet you don’t have to. The great thing is that in this day and age if you DO want to get under the bonnet there are innumerable resources at your fingertips to help you. Win win in my opinion…

…luddite 🙂

Even the folk that “get under the bonnet” only go so far. In your example, why would anyone buy a basic, underpowered, computer when they could learn to make one from first principles? For the overwhelming majority of the population, a computer is simply another tool which helps them do their “real” job. I don’t think that has changed much from the very earliest days of industrialisation (and, in fact, probably precedes that).

Most people take their car to a garage to get it serviced.

Most people ask somebody who knows IT when their computer breaks.

So yes, most people couldn’t give a monkeys how things *work*.

I’m sceptical of the Pi too – kids have had a PC at home for years… whats to stop them learning programming (sorry, ‘coding’ LOL) on that?

No excuse…

Some people like to “get under the bonnet”

Home

stuff that “just works”

There is a lot to be said for things that just work.

I understand how my iPad and iPhone* work on multiple levels (I’m a Software Engineer specialising in embedded systems) but I’m quite happy to not have to worry about it while I use them. In fact I embrace the Appley-walled garden precisely because I can’t be bothered worrying about it.

*(other tablets and phone are available)

Oh, and for the record, I’m considering buying one…. but then again, I’m a computer geek who likes to tinker.

I’ll be connecting home automation things to it, and probably use it as a fancy low-power media centre.

Indeed druidh – in fact cookeaa, as an IT bod of some sort or another, I’m sure that you’d be aware that 99% of development languages are targetted at those who don’t want to look under the hood.

In fact I embrace the Appley-walled garden precisely because I can’t be bothered worrying about it.

amen, i spend my working life worrying about that stuff. it would be a busmans holiday to do it at home.

In your example, why would anyone buy a basic, underpowered, computer when they could learn to make one from first principles?

Because transistors are really really fiddly!

Are mose people now just ‘Technology Consumers’?

Maybe. So what?

I’m not specially keen on learning about programming. I generally like to know how things work, but given the yawning chasm between what I know now and how much I’d need to know to improve the functionality of the devices I use (like the phone and the laptop). I’m quite happy to leave this as an area I’m not an expert in and concentrate on other things.

Back to the OP’s colleague, I can totally understand him not wanting to bother himself, but I think you have to be a bit blinkered not to see the appeal that’s there for some.

I was chatting about this with another IT friend last week. I guess the difference is that as technology matures you don’t really need to know how it works, but you can just use it.

I see the difference though between what I was taught in the early 80’s vs my son now – he’s taught to use applications (MS and Sage), where I was taught coding (Assembler and BASIC) and how generic apps could work.

Probably no different in the late 18th century for steam engines.

I’d say most people and (IMHO) it’s down to technology being so sophisticated (*and good) and also a change in the way things are built and put together and a change in the ‘jobs/skills’ that people have.

e.g. cars/motorbikes – I used to gap the plugs, points, fiddle with the carb etc etc, I probably couldn’t even find them nowdays and to be fair I don’t really need to with 12,500 service gaps.

as a nipper me and dad used to do things like put a new element in the kettle. a – could you get the old one out now[bar total destruction], b – could you find the spare part, c – would it be worth if if a new kettle is £10, d – have you ever burned a modern element out, e – as part of ‘modern and sophisticated society’ wouldn’t you already have thrown it out as it’s not the most up to date colour

Overall probably quite bad for ‘man’kind as I think the shed/flat cap quiet tinkering time was quality time and an awful lot of people don’t have it any more.

edit – true story, in the storms a few years ago fence blew down, so I had a chat with neighbours missus and asked about us rebuilding it ourselves, and I quote – ‘my husband can’t use a hammer’ ….

I wonder if technology has moved on to a point where only a few truly understand how it works.

Car’s for example…my first car was a pea green Opel Kadet, the only thing I paid to get done on it was the MOT, everything else was done by me – servicing, body repairs, fixing it when it broke down (which it did a lot…I bought it for £150).

When I look under the bonnet of my current car, I don’t know what half of the bits and bobs do. Although, because of the time spent fixing my first car, I could explain how an internal combustion engine worked, and could hazard a guess at what was wrong with a broken one.

Computers too…we had an Amstrad CPC464, I used to program games on it in BASIC that I got from magazines and programming books. Nowadays, I think only a few kids bother with programming. (we also had a very early Mac which Dad brought home from work when they were getting rid of old equipment – I wish we never threw it out as it’s probably worth a bomb). The closest thing some kids get to programming is customising their myspace page (does that still exist?).

I think programming computers had more appeal when the things you could create were not a million miles away from actual games available at the time, ie you could easily program a simple text based adventure game in BASIC which seemed incredible.

Now programming something like that seems a bit lame and pointless when you’ve got CoD on your PS3 sat there in the corner.

Some things I consume, some things I take an interest in.

Most people will be the same, some things you won’t even realise…

For my job I work developing paints. Now most people probably don’t even realise that anyone does this but we have a lab of about 50 people here and similar sized ones at sites around the world. In fact you probably think that paint is just paint because to you it looks that way but there’s a heck of a lot of development work that goes into it and some quite complicated (and interesting) chemistry. But when you nip into B and Q *you don’t care.

*You can’t actually buy the stuff I work with in B and Q as it is fro industrial applications, oil rigs, bridges, stadia etc.

Yes

Its sad.

It’s not sad.

Technology has developed to the point where it’s an essential part of our lives. So trillions gets spent on developing new cool stuff.

I reckon just as many people are into looking ‘under the hood’ as they were, but now you’ve got masses more cool stuff than ever before.

I was always into UTH – but if you went back in time to 1990 and brought the teenage me to 2012 I’d probably die of amazement and excitement. What we have today is truly staggering on all sorts of levels – and you take it for granted.

Imagine going back to say the 1950s and showing some petrolhead a modern car. It wouldn’t have to be a Ferarri, even a Ford Focus would be amazing.

You can still go UTH to your heart’s content, but now you can read about it online instantly and chat to people all over the world in real time, instead of having to buy ‘electronics monthly’ magazines.

I wear clothes, I don’t know about cotton farming or weaving.

I wonder if technology has moved on to a point where only a few truly understand how it works.

Hmm.. not so much – people will understand how parts of it work. It’s always the case though – in the 17th century you could be a proper polymath and understand the latest developments in maths and science. Now you have to dedicate half a career to getting to the leading edge in one tiny subject. It’s cos we know sooooo much more.

There just isn’t the time in one lifetime to learn about everything in detail.

n fact cookeaa, as an IT bod of some sort or another, I’m sure that you’d be aware that 99% of development languages are targetted at those who don’t want to look under the hood.

Not a bit of it, I’m a Clanky and prooud of it, doesn’t stop me taking an interest in whirlygigs and magic string, part of why I like the idea behind the RasPi is that I think it addresses that whole Black box full of unknowable magic thing that’s been built up over the last 15 years or so, it’s there to be messed with, both Hardware and software wise and it’s not some kids £500+ PC for school work or his Dads Macbook, it’s a cheaply, replaced board with none of the financial value, Aesthetics or product semantics that people get so caught up in…

Ask yourself honestly is your laptop/PC/tablet just a ‘tool’ or are people now not a bit more ‘invested’ in them?

The bloke that triggered my rant is not some witless 20 something graduate but a fella old enough to be my Dad (maybe late 50s – early 60s) and yes he bleats on about the wonders of Apple products, but all his appreciation of technology seems to come from a ‘look and feel’ (and perhaps a bit of conspicuous consumption) angle…

I’ve not got the hard-on for apple products, they’re pretty and do their job but if a computer is just a tool then why would I buy the one that costs twice as much and seems to come tied up with all sorts of personal value, lifestyle statements and supposed aesthetic importance?
It’s like owning a Diamond encrusted, Platinum lump hammer to my mind…

But that’s just me, I can understand consumer culture, I do take part in it, I Even get the “everything just works” point (although I don’t think it 100% true, generally the products we buy now are better thought out and more durable than they were 20 years ago). What I just don’t get this total disinclination to get at the ‘nuts and bolts’ of anything, a lack of curiosity or even no comprehension of others curiosity seems beyond strange to me…

What I just don’t get this total disinclination to get at the ‘nuts and bolts’ of anything, a lack of curiosity or even no comprehension of others curiosity

Are you interested in handbags? Nails? Contemporary dance?

We are all different. Why is this strange?

Excellent TED on how this has happened.

slainte 8) rob

cookeaa – Member
if a computer is just a tool then why would I buy the one that costs twice as much and seems to come tied up with all sorts of personal value, lifestyle statements and supposed aesthetic importance?

it’s called marketing. If you didn’t just accept that, learnt a bit about it and how to use it, would it make a difference to your life? Or do you just accept that it exists and is there to be used as necessary?

I’m often surprised at how many people are completely powerless with technology.

for example phones – I’ve repaired a bunch of phone things, like charger sockets going wrong, screens etc. All that required was a couple of screwdrivers and an internet connection for the youtube videos showing how. for things I can’t do, I at least am able to work out how to get it fixed. wheras I’ve met people who were going to do crazy things like chuck out 500 quid iphones because they’d cracked the glass.

And laptops – number of people who’ve chucked laptops because they got viruses or the hard disk was full is shocking.it’ll be worse now macs have viruses, because they attract exactly this type of anti knowledge type in large numbers nowadays.

I’m often surprised at how many people are completely powerless with technology.

What surprises me more is how many of those people seem proud of the fact, too.

If I had a pound for every time someone said to me, “oh, I’m computer illiterate” with a chuckle and a smug grin, I could retire. You wouldn’t do that with reading, you’d be embarrassed.

I don’t expect everyone to be engineers (otherwise I’d be out of a job) but come on, people. You don’t have to be a mechanic to be able to drive, but if you couldn’t drive you’d take lessons. You wouldn’t get behind a wheel, crash, and laugh “oh, I’m car illiterate, me.”

“I got an error message.” Oh, what did it say? “Oh I don’t know, I don’t understand any of that crap.” You don’t have to understand it, that’s my job, but did you lose the ability to read?

I worry sometimes that advancing technology is making people stupid.

Pride in ignorance is always odd, unless it is ignorance of what it feel like to commit murder, rape or other atrocities.

if a computer is just a tool then why would I buy the one that costs twice as much and seems to come tied up with all sorts of personal value, lifestyle statements and supposed aesthetic importance?

Most people do this. I’ve seen tradesmen oohing and ahing over some tools or other.. even cyclists get all worked up over bikes when they are basically the same as each other. I think, anyway.

I actually had someone say to me once, whilst I was fixing an issue they were having, “oh, I don’t understand any of this computer shit.” You’ve just called my career and my hobby “shit,” and you expect my help? Thanks.

*goes for a lie down*

Most people do this. I’ve seen tradesmen oohing and ahing over some tools or other.

“Lifestyle” products. B&O nailed this years ago, and Apple are currently making a killing on it. It’s no longer enough (and arguably, no longer necessary) to have a product that’s functionally brilliant, it has to look good too. Why would you have a two-foot high beige box in your living room when you can have something sleek that’s all brushed aluminium and hi-gloss black?

Which are you going to persuade your partner to let you buy?

I’ve not got the hard-on for apple products, they’re pretty and do their job but if a computer is just a tool then why would I buy the one that costs twice as much and seems to come tied up with all sorts of personal value, lifestyle statements and supposed aesthetic importance?
It’s like owning a Diamond encrusted, Platinum lump hammer to my mind…

Hmmm, this is starting to look like a bit of a STW classic ‘I like something, other people that don’t think the same as me are stupid/inferior’.

I actually had someone say to me once, whilst I was fixing an issue they were having, “oh, I don’t understand any of this computer shit.” You’ve just called my career and my hobby “shit,” and you expect my help? Thanks.

Think you’re misunderstanding the modern lingo, that doesn’t mean they are actually calling it shit.

I like everything, me. Just by varying degrees. And I’m a firm believer in ‘the right tool for the job’.

they’re pretty and do their job but if a computer is just a tool then why would I buy the one that costs twice as much

You can knock in nails with a rock. Use your mum’s best spoons instead of tyre levers.

Sometimes it is worth paying for a tool that is nice to use.

I am looking at developing a low cost case for the Raspberry Pi. It has me VERY excited and will involve me, my local school and some tame packaging suppliers that I work with in my day job.

Planning to make the case out of high quality sustainable carboard and slot it together in two halves like one of those archive boxes. Should be able to sell for £3 or so delivered.

Apart from a few geeks I work with, the level of interest in Pi is very low. Shame really, but I hope it gathers momentum.

Many of us spend most of our lives in front of a computer. Many of us also appreciate beauty and design in what we use and have around.

This (work) Lenovo thinkpad is a seriously hardcore quad i7 with 8GB ram (trying to wrangle 16GB), Nvidia quadra 1GB, 1080 screen etc etc etc and the battery still lasts 6 hours, however it looks like an ugly black plastic thing exactly like my thinkpad from 2003. I dunno where I am going with this btw. Perhaps because I was surprised to find out how expensive it was when I checked, and also perhaps because I wish it looked a bit nicer*

*I have installed Windows 8 on it, this has helped in the niceness stakes, now I just wish it had a touchscreen 🙂

It is improvements in design that have made it this way. You don’t need to get under the bonnet to make things work now – they just do. You don’t need to be able to program – you buy software and it (mostly) works. Why should ‘normal’ people care about how it works? With the development of technology, most stuff looks pretty much the same inside and that wasn’t always the case.

You g33ks wouldn’t be g33ks if everyone thought like you do.

You can knock in nails with a rock. Use your mum’s best spoons instead of tyre levers.

Sometimes it is worth paying for a tool that is nice to use.

That’s not what you’re describing though. You can knock nails in with a hammer, or you can knock nails in a hammer which has a gilt shaft and a mother of pearl inlaid handle.

The Raspberry Pi is a nifty board but the fact is, if you’re interested in learning to code there are dozens of ways to go about it with the computers people have already. From that aspect I’m more excited about things like Code Year / Code Academy. For someone coming from a non-technical background and wanting to learn more, I’m not sure a basic SoC board with no power supply or storage with it, that needs a special bootable SD card making, is a particularly good place for them to start. It’s not going to fix the issue of programming in schools overnight. I really hope that a load of good software and educational materials come out of people’s enthusiasm for it because it’s the only chance of it making any change – the hardware is not really that significant, and for schools it’s yet more things to buy and maintain and keep track of.

The generation waxing lyrical about the possibilites of these, who grew up with Spectrums and C64s, had to learn more about what was going on just to make things work. You typed in those programs from the magazines because you had time on your hands and buying games from Woolworths cost too much paper round money. If you had what we have now when you were a kid, would you have been as keen to learn more about technology that, for the most part, just gets out of the way and lets you get on with it? Would you have found another passion that might have been just as fulfilling?

People take deep interests (and have really in-depth skills) in different things. I’m a technology nerd and I love taking cars and bikes to bits, but I have no idea how to fix my boiler, or grow decent veg, or draft a watertight contract, fly a plane, or build a wall that won’t fall down. Those people that do probably wonder why everyone doesn’t take the time to learn for themselves too, but I’m quite happy to let them do a much better job than I could. You can’t know everything about everything – what’s obvious to you is a mystery to someone else and vice versa.

Okay Couar, but hopefully you know what I’m trying to say.

A £1 claw hammer from the market puts nails in just the same as a 24oz Leather Handle Estwing, but presumably the Estwing is a lot nicer to use.