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1. waynekerr - Member

   I have an ongoing problem with my back locking up which needs a chiropractor to release, I've just had it lock up on Wednesday for the third time since May, so went to the chiropractor on Thursday.
   I'm a bit concerned that having my back cracked too often is not a good thing as it used to happen maybe only once a year or so, but it is happening more frequently now. So I went to an Acupunturist on Friday to see what he could do. He wants me to go six times but I'm not convinced after going once, he just stuck some pins in & left me for half an hour, I felt no difference in the muscle pain & kind of thought I would feel some relieve. I presume this is the normal thing, but I was expecting to feel some difference afterwords. At £38 a go I'm not sure whether to go for the full six treatments.

   Does anyone know anything about acupuncture or experienced it, good or bad?

   Posted 1 year ago #
2. dave_rudabar - Member

   A friend of mine has found it's pretty much the only thing that's worked for his knackered neck, after physio/chiro/every other thing he could try, but I don't think it was an instant fix - did need a few sessions.

   Posted 1 year ago #
3. ernie_lynch - Member

   IMO acupuncture can work well for muscular/sports injuries/pain, and it needs more than just one session, about 6 sounds right. But I would expect some improvement after the first session. If you haven't noticed any improvement at all then it doesn't sound hopeful. I would go back at least once more though and explain the lack of improvement, he/she might be able to try something else - they need feedback. BTW don't mean to be racist, but I hope your acupuncturist is Chinese, if they're not, then get one that is.

   Posted 1 year ago #
4. waynekerr - Member

   He is Chinese & I find it a bit hard to understand everything he says, so I did not ask all the questions I would have if we could have communicated better.

   Posted 1 year ago #
5. dirtygirlonabike - Member

   I think acupuncture is brilliant, but as above, I've seen results after the first session. It cured long term hip pain for me in three sessions.

   It's worth the money IMO.

   Posted 1 year ago #
6. TandemJeremy - Member

   Accupuncture is a treatment not a cure - remember that. In the medical world it is just about accepted that it works for chronic pain.

   Perhaps change your back manipulator? I prefer osteopathy to chiropractic.

   Posted 1 year ago #
7. white101 - Member

   8 sessions last year on my neck and back, felt great. after years of physio trying to deal with the muscle damage I was sick and in lots of pain, can't recommend it enough.
   Physios differ, but I like lying down to get my needles and getting the heat lamp on the area. After 20mins I would feel a bit drowsy, but within a day I was on top form. When my physio first suggested it I thought why not what have I got to loose, nothing else was working.

   Posted 1 year ago #
8. ernie_lynch - Member

   Accupuncture is a treatment not a cure

   Acupuncture cured my carpal tunnel syndrome in 2 sessions, despite having had CTS for many months and my GP telling me the only solution would be an op.

   I have no idea how it cured it.

   Posted 1 year ago #
9. Tenuous - Member

   Placebos are more effective the more expensive and unpleasant they are, and acupuncture sticks a pin in both those boxes.

   Posted 1 year ago #
10. ernie_lynch - Member

    Placebos are more effective the more expensive and unpleasant they are

    Have you ever had acupuncture ? .........I find it deeply relaxing and almost always full asleep during the session.

    And when I received treatment for CTS the acupuncture was free, as I received it at the end of Thai boxing lessons - which were paid for.

    I didn't really expect the acupuncture to cure the CTS btw, as I had been told that I needed an op - I was only expecting maybe some relief from the symptoms.

    Posted 1 year ago #
11. TandemJeremy - Member

    Tenuous - accupuncture is accepted in the medical profession to do more than placebo.

    I have had it and I am a sceptic but I found it had powerful effects.

    Ernie - I suspect ( without evidence LOL) that you didn't have CTS. My GP diagnosed me with CTS when it clearly was not.

    Posted 1 year ago #
12. white101 - Member

    Ernie - I find it deeply relaxing and almost always full asleep during the session

    likewise,

    Posted 1 year ago #
13. toys19 - Member

    Tenuous, not only is it accepted its something the medical estqablishment are taking seriously for example neural imaging studies have shown huge changes in brain activity during accupuncture, medical device amnufacturers have shwon that they can make devices that identify accupuncture meridians by electrical resistance, physiological measurements of your internal pain killers during treatment, over and above any placebo effect.

    I'm a sceptic of the most pedantic nature, and having had accupuncture and delved around the research I am sure that this needs more oxygen to find out what is going on, this is much more than homeopathy, magnetic wrist bands and other shams..

    Posted 1 year ago #
14. gonefishin - Member

    No. Acupuncture = Placebo

    For those who say otherwise, can you please point me in the direction of published controlled and blinded trials that show otherwise. All the research stuff that I've come across shows that once the trials are blinded the effect is no better than a placebo.

    Yes I have had it and no it didn't work, something that any explanation of acupuncture should address. That's failures in general rather than just mine.

    Posted 1 year ago #
15. toys19 - Member

    Sorry but this

    All the research stuff that I've come across shows that once the trials are blinded the effect is no better than a placebo.

    just sets off my bullshit detector, have you ever read a published blinded trial of accupuncture to come to this clever conclusion? I can answer that for you NO YOU HAVENT if you have refer to it here. No one has ever completed or published an accepted double blinded trial becasue its impossible to do.

    It is diffcult/so far impossible to carry out a double blind study on accupuncture as not giving accupuncture as the control group means that they know they havent had it, and giving it means they know they have had it, its not like giving a real pill or a sugar pill is it.

    The opposing argument has been given for stomach stapling, some people oppose the operation as they think its only a placebo effect, and its agaisnt ethical rules to cut somone open and not operate..

    Try these studies for example links on postoperative nasuea if you cannot get the papers email me and I'll send you the pdfs, they show that there is an effective in reducing post operative nasuea.

    It is well documented that accupuncure increase the flow of the bodies own pain relivers, (link here to mice study can they experience a placebo effect or mere terror at the sight of a human with and effing great needle?)the question is asked is it due to placebo, the reuslt of the injury of being pricked or soemthing else, but there is an effect. It is worth studying and in the meantime no one is harmed, except maybe their wallet, but its middle class angst really to worry about people pissing money away on treatments like this, if you couldnt afford it you wouldnt have the treatment.

    Posted 1 year ago #
16. Tenuous - Member

    It's just a case of using non-penetrating needles to simulate acupuncture, for example see this report on a double blind acupuncture study.

    Posted 1 year ago #
17. ernie_lynch - Member

    Ernie - I suspect ( without evidence LOL) that you didn't have CTS.

    Well unlike you, my GP based his diagnoses on the evidence presented before him.

    But whether or not it was CTS, does not make one iota of difference.......acupuncture cured whatever condition it was that I had.

    After the first session I would say somewhere in the region of about 80% of the symptoms were gone. After the second session a week later, the remaining 20% were gone. And they have never come back - it's now coming on to about 10 years.

    Now of course you could argue that it was all just a very big coincidence. You could say that despite the fact I had had the symptoms for many months, they would have subsided by approx 80% that Saturday morning anyway, with what was left of the symptoms the following Saturday. The fact that it all happened at precisely the same time as the needles were placed, is just a bizarre coincidence. I really wouldn't be able to prove otherwise.

    The problem with acupuncture is twofold. Firstly, no one has come up with any convincing reason why it should work. Now that in itself, shouldn't cause much concern (plenty of alternative treatments defy logic) if it wasn't for the other rather unfortunate problem - ie, it clearly often works.

    For some people, it is simply completely unacceptable that something which provides no rational explanation, should work. Therefore it does not work.

    Posted 1 year ago #
18. TandemJeremy - Member

    I agree it works Ernie.

    Posted 1 year ago #
19. bassspine - Member

    Tenuous:-

    Placebos are more effective the more expensive and unpleasant they are, and acupuncture sticks a pin in both those boxes.

    brilliant. QOTD!

    Posted 1 year ago #
20. toys19 - Member

    Ho ho that was funny.

    I dunno if that is really a double blind study, but it's an interesting story by the patent holder of the non penetrating needle..

    Posted 1 year ago #
21. singletrackmind - Member

    Had a few sessions over the last few years. Everytime i experienced instant success and a large improvement in flexability.
    The first was whiplash based and done by a chinese surgeon after a car crash, the second was my sports physio who used it to help release muscles in my back.
    Takes only a few pins for 5 mins , with abit of manipulation followed by an easing of tightness in the problem area.
    Not felt sleepy though, maybe relaxed a little but then you dont want to jump around with your back resembling a pin cushion

    Posted 1 year ago #
22. gonefishin - Member

    Blinded trial

    There you go.

    No one has ever completed or published an accepted double blinded trial becasue its impossible to do.

    Well if you actually read what I wrote, I did not mention double blinded trial I only said blinded.

    neural imaging studies have shown huge changes in brain activity during accupuncture

    Well Duh, you stick needles into someone and it shows up in a brain scan. I'd be much more surprise if it didn't.

    Posted 1 year ago #
23. elaine anne - Member

    hmmm im in a similar situation too wayne... i dont know which to turn to chiropractor or Accupuncture for my neck problem... both are expensive and you live in hope that one of the two mite actualy work and give you less pain... dont even think about physio- my doc told me theres an 11 week waiting list' and to do certain excercises at home whilst on medication.

    Posted 1 year ago #
24. toys19 - Member

    Apart from your blinded trial is not actually a blinded trial, its a randomized trial, and not a very good one.

    the fact that the three acupuncture arms showed more effect than the standard treatment arm. However, this was not a blinded comparison, and did not control for al the nonspecific aspects of acupuncture treatment.

    
    and it doesnt actually draw the conclusion you claimed in your first post.

    Their conclusion

    Although acupuncture was found effective for chronic low back pain, tailoring needling sites to each patient and penetration of the skin appear to be unimportant in eliciting therapeutic benefits. These findings raise questions about acupuncture's purported mechanisms of action. It remains unclear whether acupuncture or our simulated method of acupuncture provide physiologically important stimulation or represent placebo or nonspecific effects.

    They essentially foudn that the result was as good as the standard treatment or in some cases slightly better , how can that be not working? It would have been nice to see a third aspect of the study which includes adding the standard treatment to accupuncture.

    Look I'm not saying it does or it doesnt work, I'm saying that the topic isnt dead. Its super easy to prove homeopathy doesnt work, by double blind trials as has been done many times, so far we have not seen this with accupuncture, and some evidence shows that its as good as other conventional methods.

    Posted 1 year ago #
25. Cougar - Member

    The problem you've got there is going to a chiropractor rather than someone who isn't a quack. Try an osteopath, or someone else with a basic grounding in actual medicine.

    Posted 1 year ago #
26. toys19 - Member

    Hmmm lots of objections to osteopathy out there too.....

    Posted 1 year ago #
27. MoreCashThanDash - Member

    Interesting reading - my physio wants to use acupuncture to help release my IT band to help a knee problem, I'm tempted to try it given some of those who have tried and recommend it

    Posted 1 year ago #
28. toys19 - Member

    No one is going to die, try it.

    Posted 1 year ago #
29. Cougar - Member

    Toys - you might have a point there. Hm. Minefield, innit.

    Posted 1 year ago #
30. toys19 - Member

    I know a very well reknowned physio, she is scathing about oseopathy and thinks it can be v dangerous, she is also scathing about accupuncture but doesnt see any danger....

    Posted 1 year ago #
31. gonefishin - Member

    They essentially foudn that the result was as good as the standard treatment or in some cases slightly better , how can that be not working? It would have been nice to see a third aspect of the study which includes adding the standard treatment to accupuncture.

    That is what they did. I should have also linked to this follow on article that clarifies this point
    Here

    Basically the four groups all received their usual treatment for their back pain. There was a reported improvement in the three groups who received acupuncture, the reported benefit was the same no matter wether the needles were put in the right place or indeed if actual needles were used. A classic placebo response. There was no comparison between the patient usual treatment and acupuncture.

    As for no one dying, whilst it's not as bad as some, it is certainly not risk free.

    Posted 1 year ago #
32. niloC - Member

    Does it work? well my dog can't speak but he has had it and it's helped his problem, you can see the difference in his movement after treatment! he doesn't know what's happening so can't go with the hype or fashion!

    Posted 1 year ago #
33. MoreCashThanDash - Member

    Well, had my first acupuncture session yesterday to help my knee/relax my IT band, and things are definitely looser - rest of my leg and hips feel very weird today, presumably they are readjusting to my new body position.

    Maybe there is something to it after all?

    Posted 1 year ago #
34. LycraLout - Member

    guy i used to work with and his wife tried it to stop smoking
    6 months later he was back on them
    2 yrs later, she was still off them

    so 50% success rate IME

    Posted 1 year ago #
35. user-removed - Member

    Haven't read the whole thread, but it certainly worked for me (as a cure, not an ongoing treatment).

    Just make sure you go to someone who actually knows what they're doing - my Dad's ex practises in Edinburgh, has spent years of her life learning her craft both here and overseas. She really does get results.

    I see so many little shopfronts advertising cures from everything from eczema to cancer - I'd guess most of them are chancing their arms a bit (a lot).

    And yes, six sessions sounds like a minimum to me.

    Posted 1 year ago #

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