Right, we’re planning some work on our new place – starting with a loft conversion.

I’ve never ‘had’ an architect/building work before, so it’s all new to me.

How ‘final’ should the architect drawings be? And how much information should they include for the builder?

It’s just that we’ve had a chat with him about maybe having some internal stud walling to make a walk in wardrobe in the larger bedroom, and he says they don’t need to be on the plans – we can ‘tell the builder where we want there once the shell is up’ type responses.
He also says the location of the velux windows in the loft can be changed.

However, I’m fearful of this as HOW will the builders know what is ‘fixed’, and ‘what is to be discussed later’??!!

Also, presumably the builders will know WHAT and HOW to make the walls – or do the fine details need to be highlighted in the architects work?

It just seems that thus far, what he’s made is a floor plan and external representation of what the finished house will look like – to me this lacks certain detail. But..as I said..I’ve never done this before so not sure if I’m just getting concerned over nothing, as this is how it’s usually done?

Any input would be appreciated!

DrP

all the architects plans i’ve ever worked with have the legend in small print “not to scale, do not scale from this drawing” ha ha
one even forgot to put stairs in.
talk to your builder, if you’ve found one or get a structural engineer to do some drawings for you, you will need structural details from one anyway most architects don’t do calculations. where abouts are you? i can reccommend someone in west yorks

If you’re looking for design competence from an architect you will be waiting a LONG time. They don’t do detail (like the one who wanted mass concrete footings in a sand and gravel area that were 2m deep. The H&S man stopped that one, the builder couldn’t see what the problem was!!

It depends on what you’ve agreed to pay him for. If it’s just a basic fee to cover drawings sufficient for a planning application then he’s probably done enough. If, on the other hand, you’re expecting a full design that can be submitting for Building Regulations approval then you’d expect a detailed plan, detailed sections, elevations and some information to describe any fire escape implications and drainage if you’re putting in new sanitary fittings. Broadly speaking, drawings of sufficient detail to get passed by Building Control should be enough for a builder to work from but anything could happen if he’s only got basic planning drawings.

Cheers for the info..
I think I’m just worrying about an area I don’t know about…
This guy has designed local houses etc etc.. It’s not like it’s his first time!

He’s also submitting for building approval, and has a structural chap for the calcs…

Maybe the current plans are just to check my approval for the design, and the rest is made from those…

DrP

I went through this about a year ago. If it would help I could email you a full set of plans that went through planning & building regs approval successfully to have a look at?

It really needs as much input from yourselves as to what you want. Architects working for us regularly come up with plans which we routinely tear apart due to cost implications and actual layouts not working.

If you’re looking for design competence from an architect you will be waiting a LONG time.

Speak for yourself darling.
I wouldn’t presume that I’m more than reasonably competent, but I designed a project recently in conjunction with structural, civils, SCL, tunnelling, mechanical, electrical, public health, Comms, fire, construction and programme methodology and geotechnical engineers which was subjected to Cat3 checks, independent review from 2 different stakeholders, parliamentary scrutiny and is about to start on site. My team and I co-ordinated all the other disciplines (except for geotechnics) which required an understanding of what they needed, required and could actually have (obviously mech engineers always need more space than is available in the entire building).
I’ve worked with engineers who couldn’t approach a design problem in any other way than to refer to an old textbook, but fortunately also with those who relish challenges and solutions.

Back to the OP – ask your architect about your concerns, after all they’re working for you, and if you’re not happy then neither should they be.

We found a well recommended builder (not the cheapest), looked at some of his previous work, got him in and asked him to recommend an architect. For us, it worked really well and we were satisfied with everything.

BTW, when we changed the velux sizes we had to go back through planning…

You probably want a technician, rather than an architect. My loft drawings cost £250.

It’s not just the loft.. Having a garage and extension too… But the loft is stage 1…

If you could email plans just to have a comparison, that would put me at ease 🙂 thanks!

DrP

Well said aP (above).
Firstly I would ask if your architects really are Architects. Many people call anyone who does drawings architects. You need to be registered with the ARB to call yourself an Architect. Architects don’t do structural calculations anymore as they are not insured to do so.
Siloseven makes a good point too.

As for £250 to do some drawings, that’s fine. If you want to pay about the cost of a decent seat post for something like that then you are right, a technician will do. Thats not knocking Technicians, many are excellent and have a good knowledge of regulations. Do you prefer to see the practice nurse or the doctor? The legal clerk or solicitor?

Obviously I’m an Architect so will protect my profession. You should have an appointment document that is clear on what will be produced and how much the fee will be. I agree with aP’s final paragraph. Best to talk it through. Your appointment should also have a complaints procedure if you are not happy.

Am also v interested in this. About to get an architect to do the same.

A v good friend is an excellent structural engineer, so I’ll also use him for guidance and professionally, but just like DrP it would be great to get a sense of how this process should work in the best way.

I paid ~£600 or so total for Building Warrant drawings for my extension including submission and corrective work from a technician. They then took tenders but I left it there as they were all silly money. Had I decided to continue (for another £400) they would have project managed it and I’d have had construction insurance.

In retrospect I wish I had, doing it yourself is a nightmare as you can’t watch builders all the time and if something goes wrong it’s already too late.

TL:DR you can have the best drawings in the world but a builder will still find a way to **** up.

Sketch scheme
Planning drawings
Building regs drawings

All different

Is it an architect or technician?

One aside is that the location of velux may change to fit best within the roof structure. If they haven’t accurately surveyed yet, this may be uncertain.

Hmmm…

Well I told him we need plans of the final layout, and for a builder to be able to work from them.

I’m sure I’m just being a busy body and it’ll all be fine. Like I said -I’m not his first customer!

Well, he’s going to submit for building regs and get structural calc, so will see what follows…

DrP

A builder doesn’t need an architect’s detail to erect a stud wall.

In terms of your agreement with your builder about locations of things like windows – don’t be scared to make notes or written changes on the drawings your architect has produced. Hand written notations such as “final location of velux to be agreed on site” are no biggie. Same for the location of your stud wall.

Edit: but make sure none of the changes affect your planning permission!

I am currently just finishing my loft conversion,My plans were basic layout and then building regs, I put stud walls in myself do location on drawings didnt matter,for some conversions you dont need planning anyway just regs,just as long as builder knows to quote for wall then it should ok

Just a quick comment. Are you having this priced by different builders? If so you hope that you will get competitive pricing on what would ideally be your final design/layout/details etc. If you start changing things around after you have a builder on site and some of these changes have financial implications the builder is at that point not likely to be competitive with costs to changes. I’d recommend layouts are agreed at the point the contractor prices rather than after.

Get the design FINALISED. On paper. THEN get the quotes. Resist at all costs changes to the design once the price has been agreed. As Simonbea mentioned, at tender stage, builders will be competative, but will be looking to fill thier boots with design changes when they know they will be doing the works anyway.

This can generally be achieved by keeping the wife away from the building when its going up.

This can generally be achieved by keeping the wife away from the building when its going up.

Very wise words…. this man speaks from experience.

For what its worth, when we did our extension (two storey), we got the architect to draw the plans for planning permission and building regs. We asked several building firms to tender for the work based on the planning permissions drawings, but they built from the building regs drawings.

It helped that my dad was the architect, so the design element cost us nothing, but he was not local so couldnt manage the build on a day to day basis, so we did that ourselves. It worked out fine, we had a good honest builder, and we didnt make any significant changes, so the build came in bang on what they said it would in the tender.

When we did put it out to tender, the range of quote we got back from the builders was massive, one came in at £22k, the other at £32k, the other at £45k, all from the same drawings.

We went with the cheapest – we figured we could do a lot of rectification and still come in under the cost of the others if needed, as it turned out, they did a fine job , on time , on budget, no issues.

I’ve had meetings with 2 loft companies, and know a local builder. THis took place BEFORE the architect drawings, but I explained what I wanted (basically, sketched it up in Google Sketch Up and showed them this, as well as showing them around the loft- the architect drawings are identical to my plans!).

They all gave rough quotes in the £37-42k mark, so I know the ballpark figure…

It’s a big loft! The main bedroom is going to be 4.2 x 7.2 m…!!

DrP

I’m going through a similar thought process as the OP at the moment so will follow this thread with interest….

Scruffy37 – sorry to be a bit cheeky but would you mind at all sending me a copy of your plans? matt (dot) will (at) email (dot) com

Thanks!

Sketch scheme
Planning drawings
Building regs drawings

All different

This.

We’re converting one of our outbuildings into a ‘granny’ annex.

I’d did the sketch drawings in Visio.
Our Architect did the drawings for planning.
He’s now producing the drawings for us to get a building warrant and then go out to tender, along with the Engineering calcs.

We’re also contracting him to manage the tendering process, be available for calls (and site visits – additional cost) to ensure the (chosen) Builder is efficient and does a decent job.

We’ve already an account with our local builders merchants, who have agreed that we’ll get the better price of either ourselves or the chosen Builder.

gavinpearce – Member

As for £250 to do some drawings, that’s fine. If you want to pay about the cost of a decent seat post

You architects must be paid a lot of money! 😉

I thought £60 on a KCNC post was pushing the boat out!!

It’s a big loft! The main bedroom is going to be 4.2 x 7.2 m…!!

Oooohhhhhh, get you!

Architects will provide as much detail as you pay them for. Accept a too-low price, and they will be reluctant to provide detail.

(The horse has bolted, you should have asked him/ her for drawings & specification sufficiently detailed for Builders to give a fixed price, and for Building control to pass the designs.)

Builders love vagueness, and hate detail. Detail means they have little opportunity to ask for more money. (“Well, now you’ve gone and told me you want glass in the windows, that’s going to be extra my man”).

As with Architects, don’t accept a stupidly low price from a builder, and expect there to be no arguments.

The public tends to get the Building Industry it deserves. The designer/ contractor selection is often made on the basis of price, the criticisms are made on the basis of quality.

Choose companies with a reputation to uphold.

ask them if they wear their shirt with the top button done up but with no tie or snazzy coloured glasses.
if yes to any of the above avoid.

we did this 18 months ago.

Stage 1 – planning drawings – sent to council to get certificate of lawfulness for our development.

Stage 2 – construction drawings (should contain enough info to build from) which are send to Building control – these drawings will have had input from a structural Engineer, who would have sized steels etc.

Stage 3 – after you’ve got building control approval, you can then get final, fix costs from builders.
I also wrote a very detailed spec, which even confirmed who was paying for door furniture/light fittings (I’m a project manager in the Shipbuilding industry – detail is king)

We paid our architects £1800 to do the above (they handled planning/building control applications)

aP

My guess is Halcrow?

Close?

I think freeagent has summed it up, and maybe I’m jumping the gun…

DrP

DrP – I think the only way you can get quote which are truly comparable is if you give all the builders the same pack of info to quote from.

Nobody will be able to give you an accurate fixed price without final construction drawings + a specification which details everything not in the construction drawings.
Details like an electrical installation schedule can only help – at the quote stage you are looking to eliminate assumptions, as they invariably end up costing more.

Any builder who gives you anything more than a very rough guess from basic planning drawings is not to be trusted.

the two builders who quoted from my pack got within £1k of each other, on a £68k build.
Another declined to quote as he said the ground works were two big, and the job wasn’t worth doing. (he was a Tw*t of epic proportions)

40k??
Are you redoing the roof structure? As above any quotes before building regs drawings will be guesses – the Arch should use those drawings to invite tenders from 5-6 builders.

It’s a big loft space (bungalow, so massive footprint).
Having a galley landing (so losing several square m of floor/ceiling, to create a full height hallway), several velux, new plumbing/boiler needed, bathroom, 2 big rooms, full width dormer…)

Property is so expensive here that it was our only option to have a decent sized house.

(do you think £40k is expensive??)

DrP

I know the architect who did our house very well. He is saying so many people are doing up their houses rather than moving that all the builders he trusts are snowed under with jobs and are basically charging what they like.

Whenever someone wants an extension/addition to their property that requires drawings to aid the builder they automatically assume they need an architect on board. By all means use an architect for the conceptual aspects of the design should you not be able to come up with the ideas yourself. However, a qualified building surveyor will be able to produce the working drawings for you, most likely at a reduced rate.

Architect = conceptual ideas. Building surveyor = working drawings.

(do you think £40k is expensive??)

I was picturing a couple of velux and a remodel. New stair, plumbing etc is a different storey (sic)

I’ll ask for it without the stairs… Should save a few grand and I can buy fat bike… 😉

DrP