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  • 5 categories of dangerous drivers
  • alfabus
    Free Member

    After the usual near misses and callous behaviour from muppets in cars this morning, I have been mulling the sliding scale of driver stupidity, and what criminal punishment should follow from each stage along the way:

    1. Didn't Look – Never bothered to look, just pulled out/changed lane – Driving without due care and attention
    2. Didn't See – Looked, but wasn't expecting a bike, so looked straight through you – Remedial driver's course (some form of compulsory bike-aware education).
    3. Didn't Think – Saw you, but didn't think you were going that fast/thought they could squeeze by – Another one for the remedial driver's course.
    4. Didn't Care – Fully aware you were there, and that they were endangering you, but thought you didn't matter so went anyway – Ban for Dangerous driving (or causing death by dangerous driving).
    5. Did it on purpose – Psychopath, or someone so removed from reality when behind the wheel that they come at you on purpose – Attempted murder (or murder if they get you).

    I think there are enough shades of grey in there, in a lot of cases people will be on the borderline of two categories.

    Obviously there are plenty of reasonable and careful drivers out there, but the ones we notice are the tossers who fall into one of my categories.

    I'm sick of needing to ride so defensively and of waiting for the day when someone takes me out (like that roundabout video posted a couple of weeks back – nearly happened to me yesterday). How should we best get the message across that we are part of traffic and part of the human race and deserve to be allowed to stay alive and uninjured?

    Dave

    cynic-al
    Free Member

    Ride defensively, take up a good position on the road where appropriate, don't undertake, signl clearly, anticipate accidents etc.

    brooess
    Free Member

    Reflective gear everywhere – ankles, wrists as well as top. Light yourself up like an Xmas tree.
    Sadly, accept that for some time yet, cycle commuting will remain a high risk activity, with many of the risks coming from other people's behaviour rather than just inherent in the activity (like mountain biking, skydiving, mountaineering etc) and minimise the risk as much as you can with your own behaviour and ability.
    Cr*p I know but all you can control is your own behaviour

    thisisnotaspoon
    Free Member

    my instructor on friday (mororbike training) made some comment about looking a long way ahead, that way you'll see the lights/crossing etc on green, but the fact youve already seen them means your reaction times will be much quicker when they do go red.*

    Couldn't help but paraphrase it in my head to "If you ride assuming everyone is a complete and utter tool it will take less time to go from zero to ballistic when they do".

    *I was doing already, but some of the guys were 16 doing their CBT and had never been on the road before.

    JonEdwards
    Free Member

    5 categories is taking it a bit far.

    There's the blind – ban 'em
    There's the stupid – ban 'em
    Then there's the c*nts – kill 'em.

    Simple and straight forward. 🙂

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    cycle commuting is not a high risk activity.

    Anticipate, ride defensively. Assume no one has seen you and everyone will do the most stupid thing possible. Stay calm

    Cougar
    Full Member

    You can never rely on other people to act sensibly irrespective of your own form of transport.

    Back when I worked near Warrington a few years back, there was a roundabout on a motorway exit that I negotiated daily (driving). On an average of about once a week, a truck approaching from another exit would reach the roundabout, look *right into my eyes* and them pull out onto the roundabout in front of me anyway.

    If you're ever coming off J20 of the M6 near Lymm and spot a bit of roundabout that's about an inch higher than the surrounding road due to four years' build up of compacted rubber stripes, that's probably me. (-:

    anotherdeadhero
    Free Member

    I find 3 qualities pervasive:

    1) Ignorance
    2) Inattentiveness
    3) Impatience

    … or all three 🙂 I'm no saint mind, I get very impatient with stoopid metal boxes cluttering the place up and getting in my way just on a bike, lord knows what would happen if I started driving – I'd probably add the other two.

    Cougar
    Full Member

    adh > you missed 4) Incompetence. Some people, fundementally, are simply bad drivers.

    highclimber
    Free Member

    I'm sick of needing to ride so defensively

    Don't ride then.
    I totally agree that we shouldn't HAVE to but we do and i, frankly, don't mind riding defensively as it means that if someone does knock me over, my conscience is clear that I did everything I could to prevent the accident.

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    There is a (unproven) physiological reason for people not seeing bikes.

    Our image processing stuff in the brain developed for seeing hazards. something is only recognised as a hazard when it is larger that (IIRC) 3 degrees of vision – now for a car thats when its a fair distance away but as a bike is so much narrower it has to be much much closer to cover this angle of your vision. So the brain does not register a bike as a hazard and thus ignores it. No amount of lights or high vis will alter this.

    Just assume none of them have ever seen you unless you both make eye contact and see recognition in their expression. Even then don't trust them

    Edit – there is also the screen pillar issue
    http://www.safespeed.org.uk/smidsy.html

    Rocketdog36
    Free Member

    Now where did I put the keys for the range rover?
    Oh I remember I left them in the Audi !

    juan
    Free Member

    You forget the Jeremy Clarkson… It's the season here, they are popping on the road like daisies in my garden.

    PeterPoddy
    Free Member

    Ride defensively, take up a good position on the road where appropriate, don't undertake, signl clearly, anticipate accidents etc

    And WHEN that fails, bang on the side of the car, have a shouting match and rip a wing mirror off.

    alfabus
    Free Member

    a reasonably uneventful ride home until 3 miles before the end, had a woman pull out on my at a roundabout.. managed to swerve out of the way – she was either a 2 or a 3 so I re-educated her while she was stuck at the traffic lights.

    The dozy cow swore at me before she realised that she was going nowhere, then she became a lot more timid, but not apologetic. Apparently it was my fault because I changed lanes and she couldn't tell which way I was going. It is a mini roundabout with one lane feeding it, and only a single car width all the way around, I was in the middle of the lane flowing with traffic (2 cars in front of me, and another 2 behind, all going straight on, as was I).

    I told her I didn't want a fight, I just wanted her to pay attention to cyclists… she didn't see my point, so we parted on slightly bad terms 🙂

    Dave

    zaskar
    Free Member

    One reason I hate road riding is reading about drivers hitting roadies from behind as they didn't see them???

    dmiller
    Free Member

    Interestingly enough I did a freedom of information request on strathclyde police after a driver wiped me out doing 30+ mph as I was stationary waiting to turn, said he wasn't looking where he was going as he was trying to read a map to the two police officers who turned up and I was trundled off in an ambulance.

    The police didn't prosecute and seemed genuinely baffled that I was upset at that…

    So I did some digging. I cant remember the exact numbers (this was two years ago now) and I have the letters at my parents however a significant amount (50% plus) of the cycling injury's were reported as the cyclists fault. The reasons for this included:
    – Being on a busy road.
    – Not having lights on during the day.
    – Not wearing high vis stuff.
    etc etc. The crap that you see in the news papers.

    None were driver faults and the rest were undetermined.

    The general attitude is one that killing / injuring a cyclist is OK as its a simple mistake that anyone can make. You only have to look at the punishments handed out for those that do kill / injure cyclists to see the general society point of view.

    Until people who kill / injure with cars are treated by society in the same way as those that kill / injure with knives nothing will change.

    All this crap about accepting bad driving stems from the same root cause – the general acceptance that cars have the right of way and that any negative impact needs to be tolerated.

    Behavior will only change once punishment becomes significant. Punishment will only become significant once society accepts that killing / maiming / injuring with cars is as bad as knife crime. That will probably never happen however as a lot of people have an attitude that "that could be me that made that mistake" so don't push for heavier punishment.

    In addition to this a lot of people seem to believe that hating on cyclists is an OK way to behave. In the environment I work in at least three or four of the "power males" (ie those in sales making £100k plus) will actively brag about driving at cyclists and forcing them off the road. For some reason its seen as macho and acceptable behaviour. Its worryingly close actually to some of the ideas in "Market Forces" by Richard Morgan. Worth a read. Anyway this is not discouraged, even after complaints to management about abusive behavior in the car park etc as, well, your a cyclist just get thicker skin.

    I could rant for hours about this.

    Hours.

    As cheesy as it is just stay safe out there people.

    zaskar
    Free Member

    We need to organise a massive protest!

    highclimber
    Free Member

    if its not the drivers fault for not seeing a cyclist but it is for not seeing a pedestrian crossing a road, say. then wht chance have we got of ever getting safe roads when there is no culpability? you can't afford to not be defensive if this is the case. as i mentioned earlier, we shouldn't have to but we do have to remain vigilant on the roads

    jonb
    Free Member

    [/url]

    dmiller
    Free Member

    jonb – great link!

    Cougar
    Full Member

    I do wonder if it's less to do with "cars having the right of way" and more to do that we give out licences free with Tiger Tokens. There's a mentality that it's everyone's "right" to drive, it's not a right, it's a privilege and the sooner we get away from that idea the better.

    It's not just cycling that bears the brunt, it's just that cyclists in RTAs tend to be exponentially more serious in terms of collateral damage. I spend half my life on four wheels dodging asshats for whom "road awareness" is something they heard about on TV once. Some people aren't safe to be behind a wheel, end of.

    samuri
    Free Member

    Indeed, that's a great site.

    alfabus
    Free Member

    Just read jonb's link… now I'm really angry!

    Great blog, I'll have to search out more of his stuff.

    Dave

    antigee
    Full Member

    Ride defensively, take up a good position on the road where appropriate

    I'm sick of needing to ride so defensively

    Don't ride then.

    think i know what was meant by "so" defensively its like not only riding defensively but then second guessing what is going to happen when some bonehead from any of the categories does the expected unexpected

    yesterday as i came up to the tail of a queue for temp lights and pulled into the middle of the lane (car behind 100yds or so back) and was near tailgating car in front as we pulled away – of course the car behind closed gap rapidly and still attempted to pass me as we entered the single lane section at around 25mph – the speed of the cars in front

    point being not only have to ride defensively but sometimes have to aggressively demand use of road space – when it is actually yours as a legitimate road user

    JonR
    Free Member

    Better maintained cycle ways are the way forward rather than draconian punishments for drivers that hit cyclists. Those on the forum who have been to Amsterdam for whatever reason, lets not judge, will have noticed that cyclists have their own roads. There is a road for traffic, a road for cyclists and the road for pedestrians and it all works wonderfully, I see no reason why cities in this country can’t have a similar system. Its only a bit of kerb to put in and a lot of places already have cycle paths on their roads so why not add this slight barrier and make them official? It’s amazing what the fear of having to pay for your steering to be re-tracked would do for getting us a bit more space.

    antigee
    Full Member

    better maintained cycle ways are a way forward but only with an attitude change that cycling on the road is acceptable as well

    – seen many comments on here on similar experiences to mine (would fit a 4/5 crossover in op's categories)I have personally experienced the

    "you don't belong here – so if i nearly kill you it is your fault" in my case on a roundabout that had an adjacent cyclepath that didn't go where i wanted to go but the driver that nearly killed me chose to point to the cycle path sign rather than their dangerous driving

    worked in Netherlands for a week or so a month for 2-3yrs and very impressed by mums/dads cycling to school with kids and the fact that provision can be improved but attitude is the key not physical barriers

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