I’m in two minds about posting this because I don’t really want to kick off another 14-page circular argument. But I thought it was a really interesting read and it’s challenged a few of my beliefs around the thorny issue of critiquing religion > Islamaphobia > racism.

The original post is a Guardian “Comment is free” piece which, if I’m honest, is a white middle-class “I’m an expert on what brown people think and we’re all racists, and that’s ok” piece which seems to be trying and failing to be sensationalist. This is here:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2014/nov/05/islam-muslims-hate-ideology-racism

What’s really interesting IMHO, however, is the reply from “ExMuslimsForum” underneath. It’s an altogether too rare reply from people who are actually qualified to pass comment rather than a bunch of caucasian keyboard warriors.

It links at the end to a blog post which is an open letter to Ben Affleck, who apparently challenged a couple of talk show hosts over their views on race / religion. Again, I thought this was an incredibly insightful (and brave) read.

The letter on the link is censored, incidentally. The unedited version can be found here:

http://nicemangos.blogspot.ca/2014/10/dear-ben-affleck-words-from-woman.html

So yeah, feel free to read it if it’s the sort of thing you might be interested in. Food for thought, I thought.

I’d heard of the Ben Affleck incident but hadn’t watched the video until now. He nicely demonstrates exactly what Sam Harris and Bill Maher were talking about – any discussion on the darker aspects of Islam ends in accusations Ismalmophobia, and he seems unable to see this.

Saw the Ben Affleck incident. He is a self righteous arse. Sam Harris on the other hand as always is like a warm shower of reason.

“there are some beliefs so terrible that we are justified in killing people just for holding them”

There are some beliefs so terrible that they are justified in killing people just for not holding them.

And therein lies the problem with Islam.

OP, there are pages of comments on the article so I couldn’t find the response you refer to, perhaps post it here ?

I think people like to play the “racist card” on discussions around religon as they feel it’s a knockout blow, if you can tag someone as racist you instantly win and/or discredit their argument. For example opposition to what’s happening in the Middle East isn’t Islamophobic IMO as that’s a conflict between different sects of that same religion. I think where we do have a problem is where people make a link between, say, ISIS -> Muslims -> Ethnic origin and thus see that ethnic group as a threat, not everyone does that but many do.

I certainly don’t agree with those presenters on the Aflek piece who spread the view that Islam is the fundamental problem. What is true however is that is a view held by many, particularly in the US. It does seem to me that Islam is more easily corrupted by extremist preachers who are able to radicalise young people really quite quickly to do terrible things. It is undoubtedly a factor in many of these acts that martyring yourself whilst killing others results is the prize of a special place in heaven complete with numerous virgins for your pleasure.

I can’t be arsed reading or watching it/anything.

But all religion is bollox. And you can quote me on that.

Andrew Brown is basically in way above his head. When he writes about things like church hierarchy or stuff like that it is interesting. Over the past few years, however, he seems to be doing a daily mail-like witch hunt against the likes of Sam Harris.

He *really* hates Dawkins though, he usually tries to stick the knife in whenever he possibly can.

Fortunately for his blogs entries, however, there is much more intelligence from the commenters than the article, which is as rare as hen’s teeth!

But all religion is bollox. And you can quote me on that.

[/quote]What is true however is that is a view held by many, particularly in the US

Come on Jambers you can do better than that.

Did you not read the blog by the Pakistani Muslim Lady living in Pakistan ?

http://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2014/10/25/comment/an-open-letter-to-ben-affleck/

Good people will do good things, bad people will do bad things. For good people to do bad things, you need religion.

or that Islam promotes these things. But if you are a person looking to justify such acts, you may find what you are looking for within the texts.

Interesting juxtaposition, there.

And – yes to the second and third points made by loddrik, obviously. Well, it IS me… 8)

I’m struggling with the Guardian article – I don’t think many people do “hate Islam”, they hate the extreme fundamentalist views held by a minority. Or have I missed something fundamental in the argument?

looddriks post sums up the forthcoming pages of titfortat arguing nicely

If religion is based on “beliefs” rather than ethnic background, gender, skin type or place of geographic origin, then it is difficult to be “racist” if opposing a position argued based around religious belief ..

*I have skim read the threads, yet to see the whole articles.

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzusSqcotDw[/video]

Some racists criticise Islam. Not everyone who criticises Islam is racist.

@cheekyboy – yes I read it, the OP linked to it

@vickypea – I do think there are quite a lot of people who don’t differentiate the extremists from the broader religion

Just getting in early before the Captain.

Good people will do good things, bad people will do bad things. For good people to do bad things, you need religion.

For bad people to change their ways and dedicate the rest of their lives to doing good – you need religion too. Usually.

I’d reject the idea that Islam is the only religion that has violent extremists; I think most of them do/have.

I think the other thing is perception.
we [ westerners] see a women in a burkha and we think oppressed

They [muslims] see Jordan with her tits out and see an oppressed woman

I think we both have a point tbh

Its not as simple as some folk make out and many many anti muslims are racist – see the EDL for example

If religion is based on “beliefs” rather than ethnic background, gender, skin type or place of geographic origin, then it is difficult to be “racist” if opposing a position argued based around religious belief

True but some, though not all, religions are seen as races – Jews and Sikhs only IIRC. The argument is you can tell by looking at them so they are a race.
IMHO you can tell the beardy bloke with the woman in the head scarf is a Muslim but hey ho

people who are actually qualified to pass comment rather than a bunch of caucasian keyboard warriors.

Hmm.. perhaps pertinent to the topic, there are plenty of white muslims (and I don’t mean converts). But how many white muslims are involving themselves in the fighting?

Note this is a real question, I’m not trying to prove a racist point.. but perhaps this looks pretty bad nevertheless. Rather than being anything to do with race perhaps it’s a regional/national/cultural issue? After if you are Arab then you are likely to be Muslim, and from the Middle East where the Palestine problem is very close to you.

Imagine no religion – the world could be a better place

Religion < > Politics

Same shit < > Different Colour

This is good reading and contains many of the Polls Sam Harris alluded to in his disagreement with Ben Affleck.

The World’s Muslims: Religion, Politics and Society

Sam Harris is exactly right though even in the most “progessive” islamic societies views are widely held that are completely abhorrent to many if not most UK citizens.

Crying islamaphobia is just not going to cut it any more, many of Islam’s core ideas are scary and that’s that.

I wonder what happened to the Greek Gods? too many gods for everyone who fancy gods , guess that would sort out the problems.

Sam Harris isislamic clerics and leaders are exactly right though even in the most “progessive” islamic western societies views are widely held that are completely abhorrent to many if not most UK muslim citizens..

Works both ways though- this is is an important point and the real problem comes because , some, on each side know they are right and will fight to impose it.

I’m a Welsh God, if that counts.

Pics to prove it 😉

This is me when needing a cwtch.

Junkyard that’s a fair point however I don’t want to live under an islamic idealogy, I think our society is better.

The view expressed in the Guardian article seems to ignore the fact that many countries that are viewed as “Islamic” or “Muslim” actually have a sizeable proportion of Christians – including Orthodox Christians in Syria, Lebanon and Jordan. Some Palestinians are Christian.

vickeypea the Middle East was pretty diverse from a religious perspective, it’s just that it has become less so. Yes, the Guardian and many commentators ignore this historical diversity.

JY I think Jordan made her own mind up about whether to have the surgery and she can chose to undo it and/or stop the modelling. The wife or daughter of a religious family has no such freedom of choice. The Burka is banned in France, I don’t agree with this but that’s the law there now.

True but some, though not all, religions are seen as races – Jews and Sikhs only IIRC. The argument is you can tell by looking at them so they are a race.

You can’t tell a Jewish person by looking at them, that’s a fallacy / myth. A Jew from Morocco looks like a Moroccan, a Jew from Poland looks like a Pole and very different. The Jews and Sikh’s do indeed see themselves as a race as well as a religon

It’s tricky: all religions are guilty of hypocrisy, excessive zeal is always dangerous:

Look at the global genocide carried out in the name of Christianity

Or the current situation with Zionists using the Jewish faith as justification for their actions in Palestine.

That said, of course there is bad Muslims, who oppress and kill, but is that any surprise given the continuous intervention and exploitation carried out by west.

Reckon if we had invaders (or worse still, cowards with drones) fighting our troops and killing civilians, we’d get increasingly hostile.

In some respects there may be parallels to Native Americans, who though initially peaceful, due to massacre and exploitation, grew increasingly hostile.

There is many positive Muslim role models, like Mohammed Ali, Chuck D and Shaquille O’Neal, but it’s rare to hear their faith mentioned.

Many of extremist groups branch from the Wahhabi movement, linked to UK & US allies Qatar and Saudi Arabia, who due to the oil and weapons trades are not cast under media scrutiny.

(Conspiracy ALERT) Everything I’ve said up there is fairly normal and easy to grasp, so don’t let the following snippet cloud your judgement (Conspiracy ALERT)

Though I’m not convinced, some claim that the Saudi Royal Family links back to the crusades and is actually a part of the Masonic Order, as the Knights Templar forms the basis of Freemasonry.

This would tie in with Albert Pike’s 3rd World War, but as I say, I’m not convinced, just added it in as it seems to be what you’ve come to expect from me

however I don’t want to live under an islamic idealogy, I think our society is better.

Shall I fix it again? they dont want to live under ours. We both think ours is better or we woudl live in the other.

@ vicky pea we have sizeable other religious communities here shall we stop being christian society? By sizeable you seem to mean 10% , 4 % , 4 %for three of your Four. Is not convinced but thanks for shoehorning it in. Perhaps you mean we should stop calling the UK christian?

The wife or daughter of a religious family has no such freedom of choice.

Thanks for the DM levels of insight. You are right every single Muslim women from a “religious family”has no choice. All Muslims wear the same level of clothes , you see no variation etc. Factually incorrect as ever. Now if we were talking about Jewish male children and foreskin you would have a point or France againa point but here no.
Re “tell” – it was part of the IIRC you can tell because of the ringlets/dress and the turban and not the face. It snot phrenology. In the same way the Burkha /beard/clothes lets you know they are Muslim
I should face palm each of your points for the level of insight.

JY Your live and let live ethos is laudable however it would appear from the best estimates and studies that it is not shared by many of islam’s followers.
I have no desire to live in an islamic state and so I do not, I’m happy with a secular state. I think it is fair to say that many muslims who live in non-islamic states find it tough to reconcile their values with the societal norms they are confronted with, like as you said, Jordan with her tits out.

As islam finds it’s voice and it’s followers grow in number in these societies it is likely that tolerance on both sides will become more strained we have seen it many times over in history. My fear shared by many others is that at it’s core islam is incompatable with the values we hold and the evidence suggests that this fear is not ill founded.

JY as an aside as I understand it not all Jewish males are circumcised. In particular after the holocaust increasing numbers where not as the Germans used circumcision as a way of identifying Jews to send them to the camps, this impacted social behaviour. For other’s its a family decision not to. There many other families who believe in circumcision where it’s not a religious decision

Who said all Muslims wear the same clothes ? As usual you are just making stuff up so that you can cut/paste your standard responses. From my experience it’s in very few Middle East countries that all women are covered, Saudi is pretty much the only one I can recall from my own travels, not Kuwait which is the next most strictly religious that I have visited. As an aside I have witnessed the religious police dragging a women out of a restaurant for dining with a non-family member.

Lots of sense on this thread.

“there are some beliefs so terrible that we are justified in killing people just for holding them”
There are some beliefs so terrible that they are justified in killing people just for not holding them.
And therein lies the problem with Islam.

Unfortunately, not just the preserve of Islam or people with any specific religious belief… Sometimes I have very little hope for the human race.

OP, there are pages of comments on the article so I couldn’t find the response you refer to, perhaps post it here ?

When I linked, it’d defaulted the comments to ‘editors picks’ and there was only one comment visible.

Permalink to the reply is:
http://discussion.theguardian.com/comment-permalink/43243086

Junkyard – either you completely missed my point, or I failed to state it correctly! And you seem to think that because I’m a Christian that I have some kind of Christianity-promoting agenda which I think is unfair.

The article in the Guardian equates not liking Islam with being racist. Since many Arab nations are seen as Muslim, it follows that the article was trying to say that if you’re anti-Islam you’re being racist against Arabs. I was making a simple point that Christians form a sizeable minority among Arabs, which to me weakens the author’s argument. I can’t recall the exact %s, but as an example, I think about 40% of the population in Lebanon considered themselves Christian in a fairly recent survey.

I don’t consider the UK to be a Christian society, nor do I want it to be. I’m happy to live in a multi-cultural, multi-faith society. I respect other people’s religions and atheists too. (Please stop making this personal just because I’m Christian and you’re atheist. I’m sure we’d get on fine if we went on an MTB ride together.)

To me, the writer of that article is attempting to shut down criticism of religion by comparing it with racism.

Religions, nations, and even races are all shared imaginative constructs (although nations and races have other characteristics as well) and if you really want to extirpate them, you must extirpate the people who imagine them as well.”

Yes….*sarcasm on* DEATH TO THE ANTHROPOLOGISTS!

Anyone else noticed that he writes for the Church Times, I wonder how happy they will be that he labelled religion as an imaginative construct.

😆

If race and religion is all imaginary, it doesn’t really matter at all whether people hate religion or not does it. Racism targets tangible physical difference between people that are entirely baseless. Where as religion, as the author points out, is entirely **** made up and can be criticized for perfectly legitimate reasons. I have yet to hear of any racial criticism that is grounded in anything other than prejudice.

He might be right about Stalin and Mao but as Hoffer points out, mass movements can rise and spread without belief in a God, but never without belief in a devil. Communism was never about god, but it was the very opposite of irreligious.

I’ll get my coat.