deviant – Member
When the top guys racing ANY discipline start using super wide rims I will believe they are better, until then a bunch of stw semi fat bike lovers and industry whores telling me they have so much more grip and are faster is not going to convince me….

‘Racing improves the breed’ as the expression goes, I like to see a consensus among racers, there’s nothing wrong with that approach….

Unless you’re a finely tuned athlete with lightning reactions who races, that’s everything that’s wrong with the bike industry.

Basically, racing sucks when it comes to the needs of stw semi fat bike lovers.

Most of us aren’t hurtling along everywhere, and have absolutely no interest in doing so. There’s lots of interesting places to go on our bikes where we need the extra grip (which means more drag, racers don’t like that), grip which compensates for our less than lightning reactions and allows us to ride up steep loose stuff that we couldn’t manage previously on our skimpy lightweight race derived tyres.

Using a bike designed for races is like using a full bore rally car for shopping.

The growth in the plus size tyre availability is a sign that the ordinary rider has recognised this and is going for a bike that works for them.

I’d say the popularity of wider rims with some isn’t about race-like performance, it’s about comfort. Many riders go PDQ on what they ride yet their bikes have nothing to do with mainstream racing. A fatter tyre needn’t be any slower than a smaller one and they tend to work well on rigid bikes, or road/cx bikes used on rougher ground than they’re really ideal for. Anything that means a few PSI less can be got away with or the tyres available can be made to feel a bit bigger-volume is good, the small weight gain is no issue.
With good suspension much of the benefit may be muted or not needed, less unsprung weight is a benefit in itself and you just need the right tyre profile (that may be squarer, may be not depending on how you like the bike to react) and pressure to handle the hits.

Edit to add, what epicyclo says is spot on. Discs on road bikes, semi-fat MTBs, all-road bikes etc are all welcome signs (from me anyway) that the bike industry has woken up to the fact that so many of us don’t relate to racing beyond a social gathering and we want bikes that fulfill our needs not some full-time pro. Give people the choice and they’re buying less ‘race’ bikes than 10 yrs ago. Racing won’t fade away, it’s just not as dominant as it was.

I can’t help but think that other than a handful of pretty handy riders here, most of use plebs use our bikes in ways that are totally different from pro DHers. What’s right for them isn’t necessarily right for the masses.

I didn’t go tubeless and wide for speed, or weight. I went tubeless for puncture prevention and increased grip when I’m rock crawling.

If your only unit of measure is speed, (which seems to be the only definition of ‘better’ on STW) then I can see you’d be less impressed overall. I think it’s telling that many DHers are still using tubes, which of course, act to thicken a tyres a sidewall. Add in a dual ply sidewall to that, and you have a wall thickness way in excess of any tubeless tyre I’m aware of. Perhaps the current limitations of tubeless/wide just aren’t good enough for pro level DH?

…..or maybe, as in all her interviews, Anne Caro found the course didn’t suit her.

As for contract shifts – if a brand hasn’t got a product ready, the rider won’t be on it. But come Euro bike I reckon we’ll see that change is what I’m saying.

As for Kool Aid etc – its an easy & cheap shot to think that is all it is. Have you spent much time a/b testing wider wheels against standard, or is this just scepticism? I have spent a good amount of time on both, and also did the same for 26 vs 650, with timings backing up what I could feel. But obviously its all not real……

I must have missed all the other Ibis & Specialized riders slaying the field on their new, wide rims.

I’ve had a set of wide carbon rims for about a year now. I did, and occasionally still do swap around between those, and a normal width set of aluminium rims.

I go no faster on the carbon wheelset, I don’t notice any more grip & my race results don’t magically improve, or fall off a cliff depending on whether my wheels are made of plastic, aluminium and 8mm wider, or not.

r, until then a bunch of stw semi fat bike lovers and industry whores telling me they have so much more grip and are faster is not going to convince me.

This is why you should try it for yourself, but don’t stop the fact that you haven’t stand in the way of having an experts opinion

As far as I am aware most DH and Enduro pro’s are not riding super wide rims so that tells me it is industry cobblers.

The “industry” has not really been pushing it though. To date it’s been a a handful of the smaller boutique manufacturers (Pacenti, Ibis, Derby) and some random chinese factories pumping out the wider rims. It’s only really in the last few months that most of the big boys have started to push it more, and even then it is far from widespread, with nothing from the likes of Mavic, Stans etc. Not saying good or bad either way but on this occasion seems much more so riders trying and liking the stuff from the small guys and the big boys finally following suit when they realise it’s what people actually want, rather than anyone forcing it upon us.

rOcKeTdOg – Member
This is why you should try it for yourself…

Too right.

It’s a strange thing, I haven’t seen anyone try fatter tyres with lower pressures want to go back to skinnies.

But then I remember having this discussion a few times before – when tyres went up from 1.9/2.0″ to a staggering 2.35″.

Oh, all that extra drag, the racers aren’t using them, etc. Wake up sunshine, we’re not all racers. 🙂

There seems to be two different points being made here, wider rims are not the same as fatbikes or + size tyres. I think the op was asking about wider rims on standard bikes.

MSP – Member
There seems to be two different points being made here, wider rims are not the same as fatbikes or + size tyres. I think the op was asking about wider rims on standard bikes.

I wasn’t referencing fatbikes. As I mentioned earlier, using wider rims and tyres on a very ordinary 26″ bike transformed it.

Mind you, I would never have thought of using wider rims on my ordinary bike if I hadn’t had a fatbike.

I realised from owning that, that all the skinny tyre weight weenie mantra was actually working against the way I use my bike.

Every bike I have put wider rims on simply works better – even my road bike.

Basically, racing sucks when it comes to the needs of stw semi fat bike lovers.
Most of us aren’t hurtling along everywhere, and have absolutely no interest in doing so. There’s lots of interesting places to go on our bikes where we need the extra grip (which means more drag, racers don’t like that), grip which compensates for our less than lightning reactions and allows us to ride up steep loose stuff that we couldn’t manage previously on our skimpy lightweight race derived tyres.
Using a bike designed for races is like using a full bore rally car for shopping.

That’s great, just don’t ram it down the throats of riders who don’t share those passions.

Plenty of us on here race (DH and Enduro), would rather book an uplift day than go for an XC type ride/bike pack etc and instead lust after the bikes littering the pits at a BDS and WC downhill weekend….when I go for a ‘normal’ ride it is to find the local DH spots and to ride down the steepest stuff I can find, not everyone favours comfort over outright performance.

When riders like me see an innovation that makes other racers faster it makes us lust for that kit, obviously. But among some of us is the desire (need?) to see it proved against the clock, that’s prudent I would’ve thought rather than just jumping on another bandwagon.

re. Sponsored riders being told what to ride, yes there is an element of that and it’s something Steve Jones in Dirt touched on before its demise. He ventured that for the first time in history a privateer can go out and buy a better DH bike than a factory rider is ‘lumbered’ with…now I used the word lumbered tongue in cheek as most of the factory bikes are great but Jones was alluding to the fact that the geometry of things like the YT Tues is perfect and with the freedom to choose which tyres to run, what suspension to buy, Shimano vs SRAM etc the privateer racer can now have kit as good as anything in the pits….and that’s why I always look to see what privateers are running at grass roots races, if it works they’ll be doing it, if it’s a fad and based around internet hype it will get used once then binned…such is the lot of the privateer, bad in some respects that their racing is funded from their own pockets but good in that they have total freedom and choose parts that work as opposed to what a sponsor wants them to use.

I know it’s easy to get caught up in the STW way of doing things but not all of ride fat bikes, plus tyres, 29ers, rigids, fit luggage to our bikes, go bike bivvying, ride CX etc etc….there is a section of us out there who ride up to date long travel stuff and avidly follow DH and Enduro racing.

Anyway this thread was about wide rims, don’t you think if they were that awesome that some of the privateers just on the periphery of good results would chuck a set on and suddenly leap up the results sheet?….that hasn’t happened because the difference is negligible, there are people on this thread who are saying they’ve tried it and they can’t tell any difference.
If tyre companies design with wide rims in mind you might see a genuine performance benefit but as someone else said, the HR (or HR-2) was designed around a 23mm rim, get tyre designers and rim designers working together and things might change.

Greg Callaghan won the EWS series at the weekend running a suspiciously ordinary looking set of DT Swiss Spline series wheels, Sam Hill is still winning on flats and Deemax rims with their 21-23mm internal width….results like that don’t exactly have me running to the credit card to splash out on wider rims, as with most things in this sport it comes down to the few genuine innovations that cause a leap forward in the sport….and then the athlete, always the athlete.

deviant – Member
That’s great, just don’t ram it down the throats of riders who don’t share those passions….
…and then the athlete, always the athlete.

Racers are outnumbered by ordinary riders.

Considering the OP asked

Has anyone any everyday experience?

I think you may be ramming your racer opinion down our throats.

Wider rims and fatter tyres make bike riding more pleasurable for most riders.

don’t you think if they were that awesome that some of the privateers just on the periphery of good results would chuck a set on and suddenly leap up the results sheet?

No, it’s pretty subtle within the 21-28mm range and if timed speed is your main thing I’m not sure adding ~5mm of rim width would do much there on its own for tyres stiff/tough/pinch-resistant psi enough for FS bikes at flat-out speed. It may be part of what helps someone feel comfortable with the bike to go as timed-fast as possible for them, or it may not. If it does maybe it’s no different to adding 40mm of bar width or having the right grips.

Anyway 21-23mm isn’t new or wide for anything DH/gravity biased is it, 521s and D321s were the go-to in the mid-late 90s. Flows have been about a long time too. It’s more that often-weenie weekend XCers are waking up to 17mm rims and 2.2 tyres at 45psi being an odd combo.

dirtyrider – Member
people think the wheel size increase is all marketing BS when the entire XC world has moved

The benefits are tiny for the casual rider

It’s a strange thing, I haven’t seen anyone try fatter tyres with lower pressures want to go back to skinnies.

I’ve got a tallboy xc bike with 2.1 thunder burts and a krampus with the 3″ knard on rabbit holes, i flit back and forth depending on how my mood takes me, both have done big peaks rides, trail centres, local stuff and even a charity sportive (krampus)

or do i just need to be sensible, choose a tire size and be a nob about the rest?

people think the wheel size increase is all marketing BS when the entire XC world has moved

The benefits are tiny for the casual rider are we talking 26->29 here*? If so as a casual rider 29 feels faaaaaast compared to 26, more than a tiny bit too. So if not feel then what metric are we using and what constitutes a sizeable benefit?
For casual riders isn’t feel the most important metric? Science/testing tells us lighter wheels make naff all difference but, all other things being equal, pretty much everyone likes light wheels**, ergo for the majority of casual riders light wheels are a good thing. So if wider rims and tyres feel good then that’s a plus…right? Only racers care about stopwatches.

*no idea about 650/fat/+
**until you get to silly light stuff – where all things tend not to be equal anyway.

I’d say the popularity of wider rims with some isn’t about race-like performance, it’s about comfort

I can buy that they are more comfortable to ride.

This is why you should try it for yourself, but don’t stop the fact that you haven’t stand in the way of having an experts opinion

I’ve ridden a variety of different width rims 17, 21, 23, 25. I noticed quite a difference between 17 to 21mm. 23 and 25, not so much. I don’t think I went any faster and I can’t say I noticed much difference in grip.

I am pretty cynical of the bike industries motives for bringing out new products now, so I look to racing as the test for if things are an improvement . I also don’t buy ‘experts’ opinions in magazines, unless they are someone who is rapid and hasn’t drunk the industry kool aid (seb kemp for example) I’m not a pro or a racer, but enjoy trying to go as quick as possible on my bike downhill.

Perhaps if you are mincing down the trail then these super wide rims give you the feeling of more perceived grip, but grip = speed downhill, so the theory is somewhat flawed at least when it comes to going faster as racers have not embraced them.

So maybe these super wide rims are fun to ride and are more comfortable, but are actually no faster and beyond a point slower?

Great if you are riding a fatbike, rigid, but not so great if you want to go faster (which is what most people want to do)

As I said, most likely the emperors new clothes.

When the top guys racing ANY discipline start using super wide rims I will believe they are better,

racers have not embraced them.

Josh Brycelend is on 34mm internal rim width, as is any other dh racer on enve rims, he seems to do all right.

Josh Brycelend is on 34mm internal rim width, as is any other dh racer on enve rims, he seems to do all right.

That’s funny, I just looked up the ENVE wheels Bryceland rides and they are 34mm external and 25mm internal, same internal as flows that a load of other WC racers are running.

http://enve.com/products/m-series-90-ten/

Damn misread that. Ah well just think how fast he could be 😉

Damn misread that. Ah well just think how fast he could be

You keep sipping that kool aid 😆

I can only go off my own experience, and find my LB 38 rims have made a massive difference. Now I weigh a far chunk more than most people and that always exaggerates the effect of some stuff. But it is clear to me that the squirming of a tyre put under lateral loads is far improved. Especially on slow tight steep stuff where you have to turn your handlebars to steer and place unusual forces on the tyre.

So in summary:

Some people can feel the difference riding wider rims and suitable tyres. Some can’t. The ones who can’t have varying degrees of belligerence towards those who can/the lizard rulers of the earth/bike industry for being able to.

The end.

But it is clear to me that the squirming of a tyre put under lateral loads is far improved. Especially on slow tight steep stuff where you have to turn your handlebars to steer and place unusual forces on the tyre.

Could this not just be due to people pairing wide tyres with narrow rims and then complaining they squirm?…surely its a case of matching tyre width with rim width rather than just proclaiming that wide rims are simply better?

I currently use 23mm internal rims that seem perfect, i.e I dont notice any movement at the tyre-trail interface, i cant detect any squirm and the tyres seem to grip really really well, its not something that consciously bothers me during a ride and thats surely what we should all be aiming for?….i use a mixture of 2.35 Schwalbe and 2.5 Maxxis on the front…however my first MTB on returning to the sport a few years ago had 17mm width rims and when i put a 2.5 Minion on the front of that for my first Gravity Enduro it felt horrible…that bike rode far better with 2.1 XC/trail type stuff, i ended up settling on Panaracer Cinders for that bike’s rims and all was good again.

Likewise pressures are crucial, if you’re going to put a big volume floppy tyre on the rim and then only run 15psi then it will obviously squirm about a bit…extra rim width may help but so will more psi in that tyre or a smaller volume tyre for that rim or a tyre with a more robust/supportive widewall….wide rims are not the be all and end all.
The same principles work in reverse, dont stretch a narrow tyre over a wide rim and expect it to work the way the tyre designer intended!

I have a set of XC717’s and have been after a 21mm rim for a long time!

Perhaps at this point I might return to the discussion, as the original poster. I wanted to establish if there might be a noticeable improvement for the average everyday rider. I read the reports but am somewhat sceptical of bike journos comments.

I seem to have stirred up some interest and have found the discussion enlightening. It is obviously a question which generates much opinion but, at the end of the day, it’s probably subjective. I guess the only way to find out is to try and then judge for myself. It also comes down to how much am I prepared to spend to find out.

Many thanks to everyone who has responded and I hope others have found it has useful as I have.

guess the only way to find out is to try and then judge for myself

Are you new? You won’t fit in with that sort of open minded attitude! If you’re not new, who kidnapped the gnarled blinkered STWer stereotype you should be?

I’ve ridden a variety of different width rims 17, 21, 23, 25.

yes but we’re talking wide, anything over 35mm is wide in my book, 25 is just standard size surely. Try some proper wide, then come back with an informed opinion

yes but we’re talking wide, anything over 35mm is wide in my book, 25 is just standard size surely. Try some proper wide, then come back with an informed opinion

Nah I think I’ll wait for people who actually ride fast to test them and prove that they are any good (could be a problem, no-one fast is really riding them and improving results) Then perhaps I’ll blag a go on someone’s bike to try, rather than listening to the informed opinion of the Mincers of STW or the “innovative” bike industry, rather than spending money on an unproven upgrade.

kudos100 – Member
….Nah I think I’ll wait for people who actually ride fast to test them…

I’ve been passed by Guy Martin several times in various races. He seems to be using cyclocross wheels, certainly a lot skinnier than any other tyres I saw in those races. He’s definitely fast.

Maybe we should all switch back to 32mm tyres on 17mm rims then?

Or should we use our own judgement and go for what works best for our own levels of ability?

If you are properly fast, then by all means use the same stuff as the racing snakes, but don’t sneer at the folks who are realistic about their ability levels and pick their equipment accordingly.

Kudos100 do you mean like someone who podiums in a national series one week then wins a round of the European series the following weekend? That’s probably someone who rides fast I’d have thought….. 😉

http://www.life-cycle.eu/2015/04/first-win-of-the-season-for-life-cycle/

Maybe we should all switch back to 32mm tyres on 17mm rims then?

Or perhaps stick to what seems to work best for most mtb applications? Between say 19mm and possibly up to 28mm.

Wider bars are better right, so why not run 810mm? Longer frames and a zero stem?

I just don’t get what you wide rim evangelists are on about. If it is more grip then how come we don’t see it on race bikes? Surely racers would be after more grip as that would enable them to go faster. Besides they are the ones who can tell the minute differences between setups and they don’t seem to have embraced super wide rims.

More fun? More forgiving? More comfortable? Better is subjective.

The industry line seems to be that wider rims = Lower pressures = more grip = faster = better. So far it doesn’t add up.

I think it is industry bollocks, like a lot of new products. Apple innovation, changing things for the sake of it, not because it is making it better. Maybe in 5 years time we will see all the top DH riders on 40mm rims and new tyres. I doubt it though.

Kudos100 do you mean like someone who podiums in a national series one week then wins a round of the European series the following weekend? That’s probably someone who rides fast I’d have thought…..

http://www.life-cycle.eu/2015/04/first-win-of-the-season-for-life-cycle/

I’d guess a study of the top 100 riders in DH, Enduro, Xc and 4x would show that the majority would be on rims somewhere in the widths I specified. Picking one rider doesn’t tell me anything.

kudos100 – Member
…I just don’t get what you wide rim evangelists are on about. If it is more grip then how come we don’t see it on race bikes? Surely racers would be after more grip as that would enable them to go faster. Besides they are the ones who can tell the minute differences between setups and they don’t seem to have embraced super wide rims….

More grip = more resistance. A racer makes the decision to sacrifice grip for speed.

It’s not just racers who can tell the differences between setups. They’re just the ones who can ride on equipment that would be uncontrollable for us mere mortals.

But we’re still blatting on about racers. This is STW, the home of the slightly potbellied (but can suck it in), greying, generally sedentary forum bashers, and the odd posturing trail park hero refugee from MBUK. If we followed the advice of the racers we’d be broken in no time.

More grip enables us to ride safely. More cush from the tyre enables us to ride longer without pain.

By the way wider rims are not some new industry bollocks. I’m using 40mm rims I bought in 1998, they’re on my old race bike. I also have a similarly old set of 47mm Fat Alberts rims.

More grip = more resistance. A racer makes the decision to sacrifice grip for speed.

You seem to be confused about what type of racing is being discussed – not XC racing but downhill and enduro and 4X. Racing where hitting turns as fast as possible is critical, where grip matters far more than rolling resistance.

chiefgrooveguru – Member
You seem to be confused about what type of racing is being discussed – not XC racing but downhill and enduro and 4X. Racing where hitting turns as fast as possible is critical, where grip matters far more than rolling resistance.

That is pretty far removed from everyday use surely? And certainly far removed from the OP’s question.

Suitability for racers is an irrelevance.

mikejd – Member
…I wanted to establish if there might be a noticeable improvement for the average everyday rider…

And yes, the average everyday rider will enjoy the difference if they fit wider rims and fatter tyres.

That is pretty far removed from everyday use surely?

Is it? Certainly not in my riding circles or judging by the times people are laying down on Strava. We’re not all middle-aged you know! 😛

The funniest thing in all this is that if loads of top pro’s bikes were on wide rims as big brands were up and running with the tech on a mass market scale, there would be people on here moaning that they use what their paymasters tell them, to force us into buying them…….

Damned if you do, damned if you don’t in the world of STW belligerence and circular arguments!

Not really Andy, I said in my post earlier that looking at the bikes of privateers often gives a better idea of what is working and what is fad-like, privateers have more freedom to choose and spend wisely as it’s coming from their own pockets….or go on an uplift day and see what people are running on their big bikes there. What you’ll see in both cases is tried and tested tech that works rather than chopping and changing kit every six months due to the latest ‘innovation’ that hasn’t been tested and proved yet in racing.

chiefgrooveguru – Member
…We’re not all middle-aged you know!

No some of us are older and balder. All the fit young ones are doing the HT550 right now. 🙂

But now we seem to be arguing about what is an everyday use or rider.

Perhaps someone who works in a non specialist bike shop would care to tell us what the ratio of downhillers is to ordinary riders.

perhaps someone who works in a non specialist bike shop would care to tell us what the ratio of downhillers is to ordinary riders.

Have you ever heard the word “enduro”? 😉 It’s not downhillers I’m talking about, it’s those of us going out riding trails on ~6″ bikes, pedalling steadily up and then descending as fast as we can. And doing the odd enduro race or uplift day (why do you think BPW is constantly booked up 3 months ahead?)

chiefgrooveguru – Member
Have you ever heard the word “enduro”?…

I did a few of them in Oz back when they involved pedalling long distances and going as fast as you could uphill and downhill

No idea what an enduro is these days, nor what a BPW is, but then I’m just an average everyday mountainbiker. 🙂

Have you ever heard the word “enduro”? It’s not downhillers I’m talking about, it’s those of us going out riding trails on ~6″ bikes, pedalling steadily up and then descending as fast as we can. And doing the odd enduro race or uplift day (why do you think BPW is constantly booked up 3 months ahead?)

….and this is the reason I browse other forums now, STW can skew your idea of MTBing in the same way that hanging out on downhillers.com would skew your perspective and give you a very narrow minded view on MTBing.

As above, places like BPW are hugely popular, FoD uplift is well established, there is the new Black Mountain Cycle Centre uplift and a newly purchased plot of land off the M4 past Gloucester bought by the Flyup FoD lot to be developed.

STW often gives the impression that MTBing is about plus sized tyres, rigid frames, bike packing/bivvying, cyclocross etc etc….and while there are a huge number of people into fat bikes, rigid frames etc I have yet to see one on an uplift day or at a DH race, it doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen but you’d be forgiven for thinking that kind of stuff is the norm if you just go by this forum….whereas in actual fact it is probably as in the minority as out and out downhillers are among the wider MTB public.