I have used all differt options.  Horses for courses.  Ill be using bikepacking bags for my trip to the islands this summer but my trailer for riding thru france.  I doubt ill ever use the big panniers i have again.

Get you weight and volume down and bike packing bags are best.

Long tours then the trailer.

You really do notice the aero drag with panniers especially in headwinds or fast downhill

Why do pictures of loaded up touring bikes (frame bags or panniers) make me so happy? More please!!

I use one front pannier mounted on the LH side for off road stuff (with rack top bag). Doesn’t get in the way with hike a bike. On Glen Tilt singletrack it is on the side away from the hill assuming you are doing the Cairngorms loop clockwise.

As for the no aero benefits below 12mph? If that is the case why have I been down below 10mph on the flat when road touring with my 4 pannier set up into a headwind.

Put the same lid on a back of the pack rider and (assuming they ride in the correct position so the lid can do its thing) whilst the percentage reduction in time to do the same given distance will be much less, the actual number of seconds saved will be more. This is why it is now advised that you adopt an aero position whilst riding comparatively slowly uphill if at all possible.

Depends on your definition of “comparatively slowly”, at a certain point the aero effect trends to zero, and slightly before that point the extra weight/poorer cooling/worse performance in other aspects becomes an issue.
Maybe “mid pack” might be a better place to try it.
A 100mm deep front wheel and a disc might be measurably faster at over 50 km, but at 15kph, they are just heavy, catch cross winds and crash across any sort of pothole or road imperfection.

For the same reason 650B is better than 26″ and your left thumb can’t operate a front mech.

Greed.

Nah, the left thumb works perfectly, it’s just the utter inability to fit and set up a front mech. (Or for SRAM to actually develop one that *can* be installed.)

Another possible consequence of a rack/pannier combo that I noticed when I had my (very early) Cotic Roadrat, was that the rack ‘locked’ the rear of the bike so I lost the spring-like comfiness of the frame. The bike felt dead with the rack on, so had to be removed.

Panniers to add a fair bit of drag yes. Trying to maintain 20mph on my commuter bike (with drops) and panniers on in NL was surprisingly difficult.

Another popular option is a rack with a bag on top, rather than panniers. A bit more stable than a big seatpost bag perhaps.

As for the no aero benefits below 12mph? If that is the case why have I been down below 10mph on the flat when road touring with my 4 pannier set up into a headwind.

it doesnt become magically zero below 12mph – or any number – thats just a generally accepted simple rule of thumb for when rolling resistance of tyres (and weight if you are slowly ascending a steep climb) is more important than aero drag (and I think assumes lycra and road tyres; not XC knobbies and panniers)

But most importantly when talking about anything aero, they key speed is airspeed, not ground speed. Wind resistance goes with the square of speed. Your 10mph into dead calm air has half the drag of riding into a 4mph* headwind (airspeed 14mph); and a quarter of the drag at riding into a 10mph** wind.
*barely keeps the midges/mozzies off kind of breeze
**about what you’d start calling a decent wind if you were stood still.

Another popular option is a rack with a bag on top, rather than panniers. A bit more stable than a big seatpost bag perhaps.

I think this the way forward. I use my bike for communing a couple of times a week so want a pannier for carrying clothes, lunch and laptop. I’m also keen to start some small bike packing trips but don’t have the ££ to splash out on multiple luggage options. Another factor is a carbon seat post which, I believe, is an issue for a big Tailfin type back.

So pannier for commuting and bag on top for part of bike packing option sounds like it could be good compromise.

It’s baffled me. I’m not an old rough stuff fellowship type of rider, but it’ll take something pretty monumental for me to start using bikepacking bags for touring.

For me, panniers have so many advantages-

– Easier to load
– Easier to take on and off
– Can carry more awkward shaped things
– Can carry more stuff
– More reliable mounts
– Don’t scratch your frame to death
– Don’t move about
– Let you carry more water
– Let you mount stuff to your bars more easily

All I can see for bikepacking bags for anything more than a big day out are downsides. I suspect it’s only come about because of marketing. I’ve done 75-80 mile days in the Baltic at 18-19mph average with panniers without bother too.

Yep. If you’ve any money to spend, concentrate on reducing the volume and weight of your overnight kit. How you carry it is a secondary concern, made easier by having a lot less in the first place. Hell, I’ve been known to use a rucksack on occasion! 😄

Panniers are hard work off road. I commute with a set, off road on a 90’s MTB that has front and rear mounts (would make a good expedition bike). Two Ortlieb front rollers on a rear rack. Additional wear to the rack (replaceable) and panniers need bungee straps to stop the lower hook bouncing off.

I’ve also destroyed one rack, stays snapped just above the frame mount. Also worked loose and damaged the drop out pannier mount thread.

Retapped both sides and fitted bigger bolts, nylon washers and threadlock. This is OK if the rack is permanent.

I won’t be using the bike for Pennine Bridleway in July. Just lightweight rucksack, minimal evening clothing, and my full sus.

If I was doing a road based tour, I’d load the bike upcfront and rear.

Another factor is a carbon seat post which, I believe, is an issue for a big Tailfin type back.

Tailfin say “Every rack is provided with an extra-long aero seat post connector. Please be aware though, that the seat post connector may rub the carbon finish over time, so we suggest placing some soft material in between the two parts if you wish to retain the original finish of your post”.

Aero becomes dominant force at about 16km an hour.

What’s the aveage speed for an overnight bike packing? Can’t be more the 12-13mph, you’re not gain an aero-advantage with frame bags.

🧐 Might want to do some sums.

Well, the average speed doesn’t matter so much anyway, as long as there’s an advantage on the faster bits 😄

Im not convinced aero is a major benefit for most users, but it definitely exists.

There is the rideability of an in-line wieght balanced frame bag set up which makes it better than either panniers or a rucksack IMO, but also multiple smaller bags is logistically far easier than two big bags for me.

Bar roll has my dry stuff (double ended with sleeping bag/mat in one side and clothes the other), seat pack has cooking stuff (stove, packed food) and toiletries, my tent/bivvy is slung under the TT and then a fuel cell bag on the TT has day kit (phone, money, head torch, buff, lock). It means that things I need during the day are immediately to hand and on arriving anywhere I can be absolutely sure of where my kit is. I can open bags in the order that I need them to pitch up. It reduces the risk of things getting wet or lost. It also means that if I have a wet tent then it’s not sitting with the other stuff I wasn’t to keep dry. Now you can do all of that with panniers but it means having multiple bags inside the bags which increases weight unnecessarily.

When bike packing I will compromise other things (comfort, space, etc) to preserve the ability to ride what and where I want (low weight, balanced distribution, reduced snag risk), touring that compromise shifts to favour comfort and at the expense of the technical riding capability.

I use panniers for commuting and road touring, frame bags for bikepacking offroad, and a Carradice saddlebag for audaxing. The best solutions for each application IME.

Yes aero and speed does depend on the goal of your trip. But after some grueling headwinds and a date with the last ferry of the day.
By seconds…every second did count on that occasion! Ha ha.
But on the flip side some people use huge wide handlebars as well which is possibly also a fashion thing alongside the obvious practical advantages for some uses.
I would think panniers is first choice for more novice riders maybe as well?
But as sated above, so many variables for everyone’s trip , and which season it’s done in and where you stop at night.

Weird that people put anything down to “the industry” leading us. Like we’re all morons that having given it any thought! If anything, we overthink this sh1t.

Anyway. I have used/use both.

Panniers are amazing for commuting through town. More so when it’s hot weather!

Frame bags are amazing for bike packing over rough ground.

Panniers are a monumental faff,

I don’t get this. Having done tours with both panners and frame/bar/tailfin bags, the pannier wins for faff-free-fitting every time. The frame stuff is fiddly and strappy to remove and an arse to carry if you are going into shops or sights.

I just finished making some ‘mini’ panniers for the fork. I can’t fit a decent frame bag as I’m too short so I wanted something that would allow quick access and wasn’t too bulky.

Just got back from a trip across Scotland and NE England with them. Plan to make a better version with lighter fabrics as I found them super useful.

All I can see for bikepacking bags for anything more than a big day out are downsides. I suspect it’s only come about because of marketing.

All those HT550 / TDR / TCR / TransAm etc racers must be wrong then?
I think Stamstad used panniers for his first GDMTBR ITT but I doubt he would have used the same gear a few years later when softpacks were becoming available.

But whether you or I care for the advantages a lighter and more aero packing system has vs the downsides isn’t the point, it’s just that there are pros and cons to both and there’s a choice.

Eg for me part of the appeal is minimalism, it always was even when I was using a rack and bar bag for touring before I started using bikepacking gear to carry kit I had from mountaineering (and tbh it found far more use on the bike than on any proper mountain routes). Bikepacking just fitted really well with that lightweight touring mentality. The less I take and can be comfortable with and the smarter I pack it, the faster and further or easier I can ride and the simpler my life becomes for a few days or weeks. ymmv etc.

Pannier Pro’s:
Easy to pack.

Panier cons:
Easy to pack, who needs 90l of storage volume? A quarter of that is far too heavy off-road.

Bikepacking bags pros:
Light weight, all my bags together probably weigh about the same as just the rack and one pannier

Bikepacking bags cons:
Less luggage space.

It basically comes down to how much kit you either want to carry, or have to carry. If you want to tour round the world with a £30 synthetic 4 season sleeping bag, tent, stove, real clothes and a clean set or three, eating proper food and drinking proper wine. Then panniers are absolutely the best option.

If you want to ride off-road and can measure your complete kit in grams and can subsist on a diet of whiskey, noodles, and electrolyte tabs, then bikepacking bags are far more practical.

What’s the aveage speed for an overnight bike packing? Can’t be more the 12-13mph, you’re not gain an aero-advantage with frame bags.

Maths fail.

On a ride averaging 13mph you’re not spending much time at 13mph. Loaded, for me, my time would be spent between 5mph and 16mph+ I’d say.

Panniers are a monumental faff, don’t fit on some of my bikes and put the weight further back

Lots of solutions available to mount them at the front.

I find them extremely low faff, by far the best commuting answer I tried, but I never used them off road for any amount of time.

Front and rear racks are available, that will allow a single central bag if you’re that way inclined. This mainly seems to be the thing that bikepacking bags are reinventing and selling back to fashionistas.

Both for me – depends on the bike and the route. Most of my tours are Scottish and with off road content (especially beaches), with a bikepacking rig. Longer road tours – steel framed Galaxy with panniers. No preferences, glad to have access to both.

All those HT550 / TDR / TCR / TransAm etc racers must be wrong then?

Although most seem to use bike packing bags there are quite a few using racks of various kinds, though admittedly using top bags not panniers. E.g. Rigs of the 2022 TCR

I’ve always used the normal front roll and swinging rear bikepacking bag up until recently for things like Torino-Nice or other routes, and never had much of a problem, except the front roll sometimes rubbing tyre and rear swinging if packed badly, recently though, i have much preferred using a couple of these (expensive, but one was second hand and other brought back from US by a mate).

They can be removed from bike by undoing two Voile straps, so takes about 20 seconds at most

Zeitgeist Handlebar / Saddle Bag

I fit one on front using one of the new Jack bikeracks (brilliant bit of kit – https://wholegraincycles.com/) and the rear using a Carradice Bagman support.

This way i have no movement of the bags at all, and both are top loading with side pocket, so easy to grab jacket, snacks etc, and then add top tube back, or half frame bag etc for larger trips. Stability of a proper rack, but not the weight and no movement of bags

If you want to tour round the world with a £30 synthetic 4 season sleeping bag, tent, stove, real clothes and a clean set or three, eating proper food and drinking proper wine. Then panniers are absolutely the best option.

If you want to ride off-road and can measure your complete kit in grams and can subsist on a diet of whiskey, noodles, and electrolyte tabs, then bikepacking bags are far more practical.

Hmm both have plenty of appeal to me tbh.

Although most seem to use bike packing bags there are quite a few using racks of various kinds, though admittedly using top bags not panniers.

Yeah I think that’s the response to seatpacks having plenty of drawbacks in space/position/design or being best for quite small loads, and Tailfin making a workable, light option for road race bikes (cost aside). As others have said – it’s almost as if there’s not 2 opposing camps, just a range of ways to pack a bike. Like saddlebags mounted to the bars and resting on racks, or 4 micro panniers and a small frame bag with no bar bag. Fill yer boots. Or bags.

Scud

That JackRack, how does it ‘stay’ in place, ie not swing back to touch the headtube, or is there a spacer or something I can’t see.

Or is it locking on to the bars?

@intheborders

It is just two straps and spacers to make sure you get tight fit for width of bar, first strap goes over the bars and around under the stem which holds it up, the second straps goes around the back of the stem to hold it tight and pull in opposite direction to the first, so as long as both are tight, then it doesn’t go anywhere, but basically the two straps pulling in opposing ways.

I’ve have used it a lot off road and had no issues at all, but all had 10 pack of beer on there for BBQ and a crate with 16 plants from nursery, really handy and comes on and off in 30 seconds

Aero becomes dominant force at about 16km an hour

I was talking about this on an audax a few weeks ago as someone in a velomobile very slowly crept up a relatively shallow incline before smashing past everyone like a scalded whippet on the equally relatively benign downslope; I’d say on this albeit limited test that weight was far more of a factor than the aeroz?

Aren’t any aero benefits of frame bags completely offset by the requisite monumental beards and microbrewery strapped to the front fork?

I think another big factor is that for many it is their nature to pack for every eventuality, if you have big panniers, then you are more likely to fill them.

With bikepacking bags, you tend to pack light, as you have limited space, and you tend to refine it over time, people are amazed how little i can carry for a week sleeping under the stars.

This mainly seems to be the thing that bikepacking bags are reinventing and selling back to fashionistas.

Bikepacking bags were for a good while mostly made by small companies/one man band types making bags that fitted what the riders wanted. Those were the designs they converged on what worked for what people wanted then. ‘The industry’ jumped on it as it became popular. The fact that things are broadening up is arguably a correction to an open minded middle ground as some of the historical examples above show. ‘Taking kit places by bike’ no more needs to be exactly bar roll, frame bag and seat pack than it ever did four panniers and a bar bag.

Our way we’re coming back to panniers as, with a toddler, any trips will inevitably involve (lots) more stuff and gentler rides. We previously quite happily went touring in france with minimal kit in soft luggage and it meant we could use the same stuff for mtb e.g. for a bothy visit in Scotland. We’re lucky right now to have a lot of different options, not be stuck with ‘you need a touring bike and low riders because that was good enough for me’

I’ve settled on have a high volume Carradice style saddle bags front and rear, along with frame and cockpit bags.

Is that not massively top-heavy? I’ve never bikepacked so I’ve no idea, but it looks like the handling would be terrible. Do you have to be savvy about putting the heavy stuff into the frame bag?

the heavy stuff

Ah. There’s your problem 🤣

I normally manage with just a bar bag and seat pack, though I’ve recently invested in a rack for my Fatbike as I’m planning a different kind of “bikepacking” holiday for which I’ll be carrying more kit

Is that not massively top-heavy? I’ve never bikepacked so I’ve no idea, but it looks like the handling would be terrible. Do you have to be savvy about putting the heavy stuff into the frame bag?

Ironically no.

In the real world what actually works is putting the weight where you can feel and control it. Having a bar bag and saddle bag is about as high and far to the ends of the bike as you can get the weight. But it feels by far the best because you have full control over the weight. Heavy frame bags on the other hand just make the bike feel heavy and unresponsive.

Panniers end up the worst as the weights both as far away from you as it can be, and at the extreme ends of the bike. It’s not an issue on the road because control and handling are basically limited to braking and leaning into a corner, there’s not much to actively do. Whereas off-road having it on the bars means you are pretty much carrying it in your hands and have full control over it.

Here is my pannier set up from 1994. The clips that attached the bag to the rack were poor. But overall the set up worked well. For reference we lived out of those bags for months of camping in New Zealand. I think ok on what we carried. Now that would be deemed a lot. Back then we cycled into town chatting to a German guy with 4 huge panniers. I veered left at a junction and he asked where I was going. I explained it was the way to the campsite. He said he didn’t have camping and so was so looking for a hotel

Obviously this photo was taken in America. A 3 day trip but only 2 places to get water

https://flic.kr/p/7mYw4V

Here is the same rack last weekend! Quite a lot of gear for between youth hostels, but we had 2 days rain forecast. I love having a frame bag. The lomo bag isn’t great but does the job. I’ll only buy a seat pack for use my FS bike.

Is it terrifying going down a steep hill on a gravel bike with no dropper and seat pack?

https://flic.kr/p/2oyJJiB

I dont think theres anything ‘aero’ about a bike getting used for bikepacking be that panniers or whatever. Hardly streamlined is it.
And then theres the rider themselves. Hardly tucked in are we. broad chest, lid etc.

Wind from the rear actually helps, so from the front the same blocking effect applies.