[Closed] Why are events so expensive ?

Dunno. I was contemplating entering the Tour de Ben Nevis in September, but its £50, and I can ride the same route any time I please. Is the craic of the event worth £50? I'm not convinced.

The organisers of an Enduro will need to pay for use of land event is held on, timing, marshals, advertising etc and will also want to make some money or at least not make a loss.

Races take a lot of time and effort to set up, hell of a lot of organising goes into it not to mention getting marshals, ambulances on site, timing etc. especially an enduro race where there multiple separate stages.

Races are quite different to organised rides too, no idea why anyone would pay to potter around in a big group either off road or on it.

Just be glad you're not getting into motorsport!

They are pretty steep in price.

But its down to the organiser to set a price and if it fills up regularly then they can charge what they want.
If they are not getting the entry then they will have to drop the event or lower the price.
As its a popular sport with middle aged men with a lot of money then I guess the events are quite full.

yeah it's a surprising amount of effort. i was involved in setting up for the national MTB champs when i was about 16. There was a group of us who took a week off work, marked out the courses, shooed the cows out from the camping fields, hired a JCB to build jumps, a couple of vans to lug things around, then you have stuff like getting the marquees up, sound systems, portaloos, bars, catering, timekeeping, yadda yadda yadda.

I got 3 free t-shirts for my efforts although i imagine people get paid for it these days 😉

Land hire costs a lot. My favourite event, 10 at Kirroughtree, was cancelled when the Scottish Forestry Commission doubled their rates and made it too expensive to run.

I would love to get into a few Enduro races but the cost is indeed high, especially when you consider the transport and extras that undoubtedly are incurred.

The Scott Mtb marathon guys manage to put on a great event for what I consider to be a decent £30-35 with free camping.

[i]Im 17 and £50 is a reasonable amount of money with my part time job. [/i]

True, but £50 will always be a lot to a 17 y/o working p/t - ie a night out can easily cost that (taxi, drinks, food, club, taxi).

Get into fell running for VFM. £7 for multi hour events and all the cake you can eat afterwards. Result.

It costs so much because people are willing to pay it.

Or LDWA for similar value.
MTB events are expensive for a variety of reasons.
They don't have the club infrastructure of other sports, so no free volunteers to run them.
They can't make use of public land or subsidised facilities like other many other sports.
They tend to be run for profit - nothing wrong with that - but it will cost.

It costs so much because people are willing to pay it.

Be interested to know what you are implying there.

Enduro is always going to be expensive sadly, for a full-on event like the SES especially. Mostly what makes it more expensive than other events will be the requirements of it- lots of manpower before and during, several sets of timing kit, etc. Higher risk of injuries too you'd expect which brings along with it more costs. TBH a lot of the work is done by volunteers or for token amounts

Enduros are also more expensive just because of the relatively small number of entrants- an XC race can have several times more people so spreads the cost, I think an SES race runs at about 400 people. And that's enough to rip the arse out of a wet trail so arguably is too many.

Be interested to know what you are implying there.

I presumed he meant that people generally charge what the market will stand.

Sancho - Member
They are pretty steep in price.
But its down to the organiser to set a price and if it fills up regularly then they can charge what they want.
If they are not getting the entry then they will have to drop the event or lower the price.
As its a popular sport with middle aged men with a lot of money then I guess the events are quite full.

So races like the PMBA Enduro series the entry fee is £40/race. How much do you reckon you could do it for?

So races like the PMBA Enduro series the entry fee is £40/race. How much do you reckon you could do it for?

Have you not seen Kevs new yacht & private jet?

I'm genuinely interested. I think £40 per race is pretty reasonable, I wouldn't expect organisers to make no profit.

If someone could put on some West Yorks enduro races at good venues for say £10 a race I'd be there racing 😉

Oh I agree, to put a 6 race series on for £72k (300 riders at £40 a round) and still make a profit is some damn good work!

I was told that uplifts cost about a grand, as well as st johns, who are a private medical service, charge another grand to be on standby for the weekend but they do a very valuable job. Marshals get paid however much the race entry is, they use 22 for innerleithen sda so that's 22x£70 (£1540) to pay marshals alone.

Most of the SDA staff are volunteers because they enjoy doing what they do and it's the only race series in scotland.

People are willing to pay or that is price at which the organiser deems it worthwhile.

Plenty of Mtb events have stopped when deemed uneconomical.

The road race scene relies on volunteers giving up time to organise and run things. Each club does 1 or 2 events and you get a season. A lot of work goes in to it for the love. I've never really seen this amongst mountain bikers.

The CX league I'm secretary of charges £7 to race. An extra £7 insurance for a day licence. We give out £15, £10, £5 in a couple of categorys for winners. Each rider who finished the league get's between £10 and £20 back as a prize. The amount depends on funds. Each race is organised by a few people for free. Marshals, time keepers, first aiders etc. all free and we aim to break even.

Pay a few people and that £14 rises, pay for a venue and it goes up again. Provide timing and a venue that isn't a bloke in a field and up it goes. Then make enough profit to keep a business afloat.

OP - dunno if this is a feasible option but you could try contacting the organisers and offer yourself as a marshal for a couple of races in return for a free entry?
RM.

Not quite the same but I used to organise the edale skyline fell race. Maximum of 500 entries.

Costs were fairly low really, but in my last year we had 85 helpers and marshals (all volunteers) for part or a full day. I'll leave to to work out the cost of actually paying them if it was a commercial event.

There are some fixed costs that you incur as soon as you start an event such as adverts, insurance etc

There are some costs that increase with the number of people attending such as toilets, first aid etc

There are some costs that increase with the length (days or distance) of the event such as staff and land hire.

I had no real idea about any of this when I organised the first Big Bike Bash but thought that the costs don't increase much once you have got the whole thing set up whether you have one race, two races or, in the case of the BBB, about 40 events happening in the same venue.

£50 for an adult for one race may seem a lot but £60 for an adult for three days with 40 events, a music and beer festival seems better I think.

Okay, we are not trying to make a living out of it, we don't pay staff and give money to UK Youth instead but I think other events should try to put more things on using their existing facilities to add value to their events.

£50 is really too much .. dont the organisers think.. its 4 grand for a bike another 400 for the riding gear a couple of hundred for the bike rack and the cost of audis and vw vans today.. i m surpised that anybody enters at all.. especially when so much fun can be had on here for the price of fresh air.

It is not that expensive, you know. Once my parents went tot the festival that cost them more then 5000$...I was like:WHAT? WHY??

I KNOW! I MEAN, WHY?

This spammer came on STW. What she posted next will scare you! #3 is AMAZEBALLZ.

I've only done two, both PMBA but I thought, considering the effort & cost that must have gone in, they were good value.

After all, a Hope cassette expander costs more and your not even allowed to race without one...

I just re-read that.

Largs???

FINALLY SOMETHING IS HAPPENING HERE! Guessing it'll probably be up Kelburn then.

Anyway, might consider it depending when my hernia op is though HT may be a bit ambitious. Mind you, it was back in the SDA's as well so why change the habit of a lifetime...

Mtbo is about 15 quid. The colne valley ride is 17 (and for charity). I just did a fell race for 4 (ditto,with free entry to the local fair).

I think everyone knows that the race organisers are driving round in super cars and blowing their noses on 20 pound notes...

Or things cost money, for example want accurate timing?
http://www.raceresult.co.uk/en-uk/shop/ActiveSystem.php
£2500 or £250 hire for a weekend plus chips.
Want to get some toilets?
They cost money
Want to run an event then you need to pay for insurance
All that tape that marks the course? Costs money
All the time to setup? That is time that the organiser puts in and isn't doing a money earning job.
Want marshalls? You will at least need to feed them or give them something unless you have a load of gullible friends.

£50 sounds like really good value. Looking at a couple of events that cost a lot more than that.
http://wildsidemtb.com/index.php/entry/entry-information $620Au/£325 for 4 days.
http://www.hellfirecup.com/ $445Au/£235 for the 4 day event

There's a wide range of prices for events, some IMO are too expensive. So much so that I'd rather ride/race in Belgium or France, as entries are silly cheap and yet fully loaded.
I still can't get over the Gent Wevelgem, for 8 euros. Electronic timing, free Etixx food and drink at start and en route, waymaked, some closed sections, police control in towns, free images and video, goody bag, free bike wash, free security bike parking, two free bottles and the HQ was a bar when we got back.
Road racing is £10 here which is fine, my races in Belgium are 5 euros.

run things. Each club does 1 or 2 events and you get a season. A lot of work goes in to it for the love. I've never really seen this amongst mountain bikers.

The Beastway series in London is like this. Primarily organised by Hackney GT and 1 of eight participating clubs volunteer to marshal each round. Only payment is a free cup of tea. As a result though, it's £10 per race.

Sounds like there is a chunk of cash coming from other sources there oldgit, either clubs, associations, sponsors or subsidy.

I just re-read that.

Largs???

FINALLY SOMETHING IS HAPPENING HERE! Guessing it'll probably be up Kelburn then

Aye, mostly Kelburn, but I wouldn't be surprised if they also re-jigged the old Largs DH into Douglas park, but maybe starting a wee bit higher?.

It'll be interesting to see where else they build, talk of them going up top of the hills above Kelburn, but that'll be a lot of work building and also some climbing trails required too.

I have the books for 3 rounds of the SES last year, so know exactly what got spent on what..

Different organisers prioritise different things. At Inners MTB we spent a lot on safety stuff e.g. Medics, radios and having plenty of paid marshals. Not so much on the advertising side or making a profit side. We didn't invest in expensive kit, some money for the big event organisers has to go into building up plant - looking at each event individually can be misleading.

There are hundreds of different ways to skin that particular cat.

[quote="b r"]
True, but £50 will always be a lot to a 17 y/o working p/t - ie a night out can easily cost that (taxi, drinks, food, club, taxi).
When was the last time you went out ? 🙂 £50 might cover the drinks, just. Not the other stuff.

Hey jack, as has been mentioned previously you could always marshall for a different SES round to get the entry for Largs.

For the people who love to throw out the comments that the organisers are obviously running around in flash cars etc, we all know they are not and that these events are run by very hard working individuals / groups for not much or any profit. But sometimes it is good to find out exactly how much these events cost and what the breakdowns in cost are. That way you can look objectively when the money rolls out your wallet.

I feel very thankful that there are people out there who want to go to the effort of running events like this.

I raced at Dunkeld this weekend and the enduro is run by an independent bike shop who have a small number of very committed volunteers. You should see the trails that they have built in the last few years. Absolutely fanstasic. But ill be there was a fair amount of cost involved.

I feel very thankful that there are people out there who want to go to the effort of running events like this.

This.

[i]I feel very thankful that there are people out there who want to go to the effort of running events like this.[/i]

++1

Check out CiderInSports 'flash' Citroen Berlingo

A massive +1 thanks to all the volunteers.

I remember turning up at Pearce DH races early to see the guys up there taping courses, setting up tents, timing systems and all that on a Friday after they finished work, then still being there on a Sunday night after everyone went home.

Also, all these enduro events have been really good for getting new trails, which is a great legacy. The amount of trails in the Tweed valley for instance has grown at an incredible rate since EWS was first there.

They can be put on much more cheaply than they are. I organised a race a few years ago and it cost £10. Almost half the field of 80 got a prize. There were proper race numbers. We had music. We had first aid. We had portaloos. We made a profit that went to Mountain Rescue.

If I'd used timing chips from Sportident it would probably have gone up to £20 each. £30 would have turned an alright profit. £50 is taking the michael.

[quote=mikewsmith ]A massive +1 thanks to all the volunteers.

+2 our local series (woodland riders) pretty much happens because of one guy and his family. all the profit goes back into the club.

If you want to understand where the £50 goes, then get involved and see what goes on behind the scenes.

Try entering one of the self supported events: [url] http://selfsupporteduk.net [/url] if you want a free event where you get nothing but a route and a start time.

[i]When was the last time you went out ? £50 might cover the drinks, just. Not the other stuff. [/i]

Last time? Met a few mates in Wetherspoons, spent more on the taxi than food/drink 🙂

Didn't want to willy-wave and point out I'd spent 10x that before.

Fair play munro biker, you should get into the game and you would make a killing.
How much did the insurance cost?
What kind of race? Was there 5 stages and timing on each stage?

I'm not suggesting you are making it up but not sure you could put on an Enduro race for £10

If you can find the organisers taking the piss then please point them out.

I did put on the feedback for the latest round (Ae) that it's difficult to see where the £50 goes. It was £45 last year and there was better feed stations etc. Although it did move to sportident so presumably they take some money.

Comparing it to Vallelujah earlier in the year you got a free t-shirt and a bakery at the top. At Ae there were around ten gels left on a table that disappeared in about 5 minutes and it was more expensive. It's not going to stop me entering them but how much does it cost to have a table with some bananas and cake on it? At least it'd look like you were getting a bit more for your money.

[i]Also, all these enduro events have been really good for getting new trails, which is a great legacy. The amount of trails in the Tweed valley for instance has grown at an incredible rate since EWS was first there. [/i]

The majority of trails were already there, you just didn't know about them.

It's always good when [url= http://theteamrobot.blogspot.hk/2015/02/race-entries.html ]Team Robot[/url] has said something vaguely obnoxious about these matters:

You know what addicts do when the price of meth goes up? They hustle. They makes moves. And they keep buying meth. No one wants to know how or where they got that money, but they found it somewhere. ...

If you want to race, you just find the money somehow. Maybe you sell a kidney or kill someone for money or work on "Deadliest Catch" or whatever. Maybe you ask the meth people where they get their money. Maybe you start stealing outdoor AC units or start a chop shop in the garage. Maybe you start a "massage" booth in your van at the next race. You hustle.

mike- no, I don't think you could put on an Enduro race for £10. The format definitely needs timing chips. This was 2 endurance races held back to back on one day. Based on my experience of organising an event I think somewhere in the region of £30-40 would get you a good Enduro and turn a profit.

Never doing it again mind!

Profit meaning taking more than you spend or covering the 3-4 days you will spend working at the event, marking the course, cleaning up after everyone and the rest. Profit is looked on as if it's a dirty word here, events need to at least cover costs and there needs to be something for the organiser at the end.

£50? Why is it so much? Sportives are 15-20ish. 50 is ridiculous.

Profit as in taking home more than you spent (unless you did what we did and donate it to charity).

[quote=hora ]£50? Why is it so much? Sportives are 15-20ish. 50 is ridiculous.

Fred Whitton is £50
Ride London is £50

mike- no, I don't think you could put on an Enduro race for £10. The format definitely needs timing chips. This was 2 endurance races held back to back on one day. Based on my experience of organising an event I think somewhere in the region of £30-40 would get you a good Enduro and turn a profit.

I mentioned it on the sportive thread, but I'm off to do a sailing race this weekend, £20, 6 races, safety boats, etc etc for £20. And theres a curry on Saturday night.

Yes it relies on voulenteers, but it does turn a proffit for the hosting club. All it relies on technologicaly is a stopwatch and good organistation.

So the question to people moaning about the cost is, why haven't you voulenteered to help run an event and bring the cost down. Phone round a few local clubs, get each to put on an event with their own voulenteer manpower, and you've got a series.

But giving all your time for free Munro? I applaud all the people who give their time for nothing and it's the main reason the events only cost £50. There would be no profit if the event organisers even got minimum wage for their efforts.

What are the average entry numbers for these events?

Spend £1000's on bike/biking gear.
Complain about £50........confused.

I don't spend £50 a ride to ride my local trail on the 'thousands' bike.

Hora
.??

What are the average entry numbers for these events?

You're never going to enter one, so stop bloody moaning about it!.

TINAS- I know we balk at the Birkett Trophy in the Lake District because it's about £25-30 quid! Sailing does depend on volunteers- but the volunteers are expected to volunteer as part of their membership to a club (we have to do race duties twice a year or we can't sail in the races, which seems fair). But considering they are paying for a club house, rent on a lake, a couple of ribs at a few grand a piece, a committee boat, a bar, a kitchen, showers etc. it does put bike racing in a field with some portaloos into perspective.

Mike- I think for £30-£40 you'd have enough money to pay people and still have some extra. Just did some sums and based on hiring enough Sportident stuff for 80 riders and five stages from mudandsweat and paying my marshalls £50 each the event would have cost £24.

I'd say the bigger issue here is £50 preventing someone who's 17 years old who could be the next Josh Bryceland or whatever racing bikes because it's unreasonably expensive.

I guess the STW-Moaner-Everything's a rip off team could start organising these events in the middle of their busy lives, the bike shop they could run better and turn an easy profit could sponsor it.

The [url= http://www.sda-races.com/entries.html ]Scottish Downhill association[/url] have posted cost breakdowns in the past for their events, the below is for 2012 and my understanding is insurance and venue costs have increased significantly since then.

UPLIFT £22,332
MEDICS £18,166
NON-RACE COSTS £16,117
PRIZES/TROPHIES £12,380
MARSHALS £8,190
TOILET HIRE £6,570
SC LEVIES £3,971
FIELD HIRE £1,698
FC LEVIES £1,386
CATERING £1,356
SKIP HIRE £1,150

Total- £93,316
SDA runs 6 events a year. Not sure what costs were at that point in time but let's say £50 with average of 300 entries per round, that's an income of £90,000, so pretty much at break even.

They don't have timing costs in there as they have their own system rather than rent, though I understand they have just replaced their own system and paid £20k for a replacement. The costs for renting a dibber system is outlined above from Munro.

And that's to race on one descent, not multiple. I'd imagine insurance may be more expensive if you have 5 descents?.

That and multiple sets of timing gear, more marshalls, more timing people and more logistics.

No uplift costs for Enduros - that is a big factor.

At £50 per race with 400 plus riders money is being made - and why shouldn't it be ? If events are run by a commercial company, as SES is now, then they are paying tax, employing folk, carrying the risk etc.

(more marshals - no, DH is line of site marshalling, Enduro er isn't now that BC have stepped away)

Insurance isn't based on course distance, it is usually per rider, so the costs are levelled.

Of course if you're running it as a business there should be some money in it. I do think some are overcharging though.

It'd be nice if we could get a "club" scene going on- if local cycling clubs started putting on races for each other with volunteers then everyone would have a good race, it'd not cost much money and maybe a few more hot racers would emerge.

One of the good things about mountain biking is that there isn't a club scene.

Take a look at the SDA costings up there which bits would a club be able to reduce?
The club scene here in Oz is really strong there are some cheap events done at a local level for fun. Our local DH races are cheaper but there is a fraction of the uplift, 2 marshalls and all prizes are donated by sponsors.

The risk management stuff required by FCS (and possibly some insurance companies) puts MTB events well out of the reach of local club enthusiasts these days, if you have more than about 50 riders.

The FCS events "agreement" is a good read:

http://www.dmbins.com/developing/people--2/events-page--8/organising-your-own-event/mountain-biking-events-on-the-national-forest-estate

Which has backfired somewhat, as now people just run them unofficially without permission - in the valley they are very open about it, I have even seen posters.

In that SDA list above I'd query what the following are for:

NON-RACE COSTS £16,117
PRIZES/TROPHIES £12,380
MARSHALS £8,190

Not race costs is a bit wishy washy could be anything? Surely prizes are paid for by sponsors? And what marshals are getting paid? I assume commisaires get something but that seems a lot.

If the costs of Enduro put you off then there are plenty of cheaper racing formats out there like road, TT or XC.

I would say that Non-Race costs is the bill for the Commissaires at the catering van. But seriously, that is quite a bucket, although I am sure SDA are above question. Probably accommodation for all the staff at the various venues ? Trail building ? Marketing and website ?

At SDA I think marshals get £90 "expenses" (can't be paid as such as would then have to do the whole NI numbers and tax fandango).

Which has backfired somewhat, as now people just run them unofficially without permission - in the valley they are very open about it, I have even seen posters.

see http://www.matesrace.co.uk/event/index

Getting Marshalls is tough enough, paying them is one way to make sure you have enough (not enough marshals = no race) It would also cover things like free entries if you bring a marshal.

The prizes come up as £5/entry

and still in that people are not getting paid for a hell of a lot of work (6 races - 18 days of work just at the races plus all the other stuff that goes into it.) as for non race costs things like driving to the event and all the other stuff that just adds up.

Really interesting to see the cost breakdowns above. In answer to the OP, it's basically because staging events isn't cheap, especially as they scale.

A very tiny event can run with volunteers. A slightly bigger one might be able to break even with volunteers plus a single figure £ entry per rider making just enough to cover, say, equipment hire and any venue fees (etc.). A much bigger event will have large production requirements in terms of time, and won't run well at all without at least some paid staff. As production time reaches further back from the event day, and staffing requirements scale beyond what a small group of volunteers can do or coordinate, that starts reaching into significant costs. Infrastructure and venue fees don't necessarily benefit from any economies of scale either.

The frustrating thing as an organiser (I don't run bike events, but I do run events) is that what you and your team do is absolutely exhausting, often involves long hours and a whole load of crisis management, yet is essentially invisible to everyone who turns up and makes use of all the stuff you sorted out. I think that's one of the reasons events can [i]feel[/i] expensive.

In that SDA list above I'd query what the following are for:

NON-RACE COSTS £16,117
PRIZES/TROPHIES £12,380
MARSHALS £8,190

They're laughing at you right now from their cigar and champagne den.

OT: I used to laugh when I saw the race winners of various series holding up their cheques

[img] [/img]

I'll be honest having helped run all kinds of events from XC, DH, TT and RR, I'm amazed at how much SDA are spending on prizes and marshals. Hard to say either way whether NON-RACE COSTS £16,117 is value or not as it is so vague.