So is that none then?

To be fair he has said “OK, maybe not the actual cause”, and then went on to give the example of the Iraq War, which as everyone knows wasn’t caused by religion.

As it happens Pope John Paul very publicly voiced his opposition to the Iraq War, but Bush and Blair chose to ignore him. So a good point well made.

Let us hope the new pope suddenly remembers some extra commandments to reduce the suffering his predecessors have been party to. Might I suggest:

11.Thou shall use birth control to reduce the spread of disease (especially AIDS) and to prevent overpopulation

12.Thou shall not hoard wealth whilst others worldwide die in poverty

13.Thou shall not have intimate relations with minors, be party to those that do, or protect those that do

14.God made all animals, some animals are naturally homosexual, therefore god accepts homosexuality

Let us hope the new pope suddenly remembers some extra commandments to reduce the suffering his predecessors have been party to. Might I suggest:
11.Thou shall use birth control to reduce the spread of disease (especially AIDS) and to prevent overpopulation
12.Thou shall not hoard wealth whilst others worldwide die in poverty
13.Thou shall not have intimate relations with minors, be party to those that do, or protect those that do
14.God made all animals, some animals are naturally homosexual, therefore god accepts homosexuality

Is their a really slow echo in here 🙂

So did Tony Blair take us to war before or after he ‘found’ god?! Or during even!

I think it’s nice that God’s got a new best friend.

Indeed, I imagine Godding’s a lonely job at times.

God was just a convenient scapegoat

This.

An Argentinian Pontiff and no Hand of God jokes. I’m surprised.

na, but here’s a comment from the man himself! 😀

That’s ace, true fact.

Not big on religion personally, but jolly good luck to him. I hope he serves his followers well.

Will his “contestants” win a speedboat if they get one in the bullseye?

Blimey, they’ve elected another one with a dodgy past!

The sins of the Argentinian church

Interesting piece in the Gurniad from 2011.

He recounts how the Argentinian navy with the connivance of Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio, now the Jesuit archbishop of Buenos Aires, hid from a visiting delegation of the Inter-American Human Rights Commission the dictatorship’s political prisoners. Bergoglio was hiding them in nothing less than his holiday home in an island called El Silencio in the River Plate. The most shaming thing for the church is that in such circumstances Bergoglio’s name was allowed to go forward in the ballot to chose the successor of John Paul II.

Seosamh77 what are you calling wars? Recent civil wars or troubles that have been caused or exacerbated by religion such as the current fighting in Mali, Bokor Haran (sp) in Nigeria, the Sudan conflict, the Balkans & Northern Ireland.

Not all entirely driven by religion or necessarily related to RC, but religion played a part in them all.

Yeah and the Vatican bank also funded radical insurgent groups like Solidarity in Poland and that led to the eventual falling of the Berlin wall, which of course led to the integration of former Communist countries into the EU, which has led to Romanian dole cheats in the UK and our plumbers being out of work!

Seosamh77 what are you calling wars? Recent civil wars or troubles that have been caused or exacerbated by religion such as the current fighting in Mali, Bokor Haran (sp) in Nigeria, the Sudan conflict, the Balkans & Northern Ireland.

Not all entirely driven by religion or necessarily related to RC, but religion played a part in them all.

But this is funnier! 🙂

Won’t somebody think of the plumbers!

rogerthecat – Member
Blimey, they’ve elected another one with a dodgy past!

The sins of the Argentinian church

Interesting piece in the Gurniad from 2011.

He recounts how the Argentinian navy with the connivance of Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio, now the Jesuit archbishop of Buenos Aires, hid from a visiting delegation of the Inter-American Human Rights Commission the dictatorship’s political prisoners. Bergoglio was hiding them in nothing less than his holiday home in an island called El Silencio in the River Plate. The most shaming thing for the church is that in such circumstances Bergoglio’s name was allowed to go forward in the ballot to chose the successor of John Paul II.

rogerthecat
The text you quoted does not appear on the link you give. This does:

• This article was amended on 14 March 2013. The original article, published in 2011, suggested that Argentinian journalist Horacio Verbitsky claimed that Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio connived with the Argentinian Navy to hide political prisoners on an island called El Silencio during an inspection by human rights monitors. Although Verbitsky makes other allegations about Bergoglio’s complicity in human right abuses, he does not make this claim. The original article also wrongly described El Silencio as Bergoglio’s “holiday home”.

Did you have to dig deep to find the wrong story or did you write it yourself?

@loum – it was there this morning when I posted the link, although the friend who sent me the link said:

“Now call me suspicious, & paranoid, but I think they just back-engineer History to suit themselves. See this is in Guardian, but written 2 & bit years ago :
“He recounts how the Argentinian navy with the connivance of Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio, now the Jesuit archbishop of Buenos Aires, hid from a visiting delegation of the Inter-American Human Rights Commission the dictatorship’s political prisoners” – but I think it’ll be deleted”

Seems the Gurniad have done a swift edit. Guess it was ok to leave it stet until now.

EDIT: – This kinda gives it away: “This article was amended on 14 March 2013.”

I’ve not read this thread in detail but it has to include mention of Tim Minchin and the Pope Song.

It’s NSFW in quite a profound way so I won’t link to it but a quick Google will find a video.

Once you get past the profanities it’s actually pretty much what I think about the whole thing.

Fair enough roger, not your fault, I apologise. They must have changed the text since you linked it.

It looks like the Guardian are the one’s that needed to “check their facts”, not yourself.
And after doing so, they realised that their story was easily checkable by anyone who could read a book in Spanish.

Although they never actually stated that the incident happened: they implied so by stating that Verbitsky’s book, El silencio, claimed that it did.
Now, in their own words “he did not make this claim“.

The question is, why did the Guardian’s Hugh O’Shaughnessy claim that the book he quoted said something that it didn’t?

“Now call me suspicious, & paranoid, but I think they just back-engineer History to suit themselves.”

Or recognise libel.
Does your mate own much tin foil? 😉

@loum – no probs, don’t have the time nor inclination to invent stuff, the truth is way too weird to make it worth the bother.

Very sloppy journalism by the Gurniad (no real shock there TBH) but I thought it was interesting how the church behaved in Argentina during a very nasty period of it’s history. If you have the interest and inclination read the comments under the article (assuming they still exist) – some make very interesting reading.

Does your mate own much tin foil?

You mean Brian Alcan, not sure I’ll ask him. 😀

I thought it was interesting how the church behaved in Argentina during a very nasty period of it’s history.

Not just in Argentina, but throughout Latin America, when the region was overwhelmingly gripped by brutal and murderous American backed military dictatorships.

Although any complicity tended to involve the hierarchy of the Catholic Church, which just like any other successful institution within a society, has in its upper echelons a disproportionate representation of the ruling classes/elite. Many in the lower ranks such as priests and nuns who spoke out for the poor and oppressed were themselves arrested, tortured, and murdered.

There was one outstanding exception, Archbishop Oscar Romero the Primate of El Salvador, who died a martyr’s death at the hands of the Washington backed Death Squads for speaking out for the poor and oppressed. This is what he said, something which he knew would cost him his life :

“Profound religion leads to political commitment and in a country such as ours where injustice reigns, conflict is inevitable… Christians have no fear of combat; they know how to fight but they prefer to speak the language of peace. Nevertheless, when a dictatorship violates human rights and attacks the common good of the nation, when it becomes unbearable and closes all channels of dialogue, of understanding, of rationality, when this happens the Church speaks of the legitimate right of insurrectional violence.”

To talk about “the legitimate right of insurrectional violence” was pretty radical stuff, and all the more surprising as Oscar Romero was considered to be very much a conservative when he was made Archbishop. It seems that an awareness of the suffering that his “flock” was experiencing, and the responsibility he felt towards them on becoming Archbishop, radicalised him.

On the question of Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio, there have been attempts in the past by elements within the Peronist movement which dislikes him, to link him with complicity with the Junta, no evidence has ever been provided. I’m sure that if evidence existed it would have been uncovered by now specially as he has clashed with both Kirchners in the past.

Most of what you say there was discussed in the comments following the article, it piqued my curiosity enough for me to read further on the subject. All very murky, very unpleasant and blessed with the same lack of opposition to repression as in Germany, Spain and other countries, where being close to power was convenient for the church.
There do seem to have been various people of faith who did stand up and protest but they all seem to have met the depressing end.
Off to read more on the Spanish Civil War by way of light relief.

the same lack of opposition to repression as in Germany, Spain and other countries

Don’t forget about Croatia!

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnUaUXZrYb0[/video]

Great vid 😆

See, religion can be a force for good, it made me laugh!

All very murky, very unpleasant and blessed with the same lack of opposition to repression as in Germany, Spain and other countries, where being close to power was convenient for the church.

I think you’ll find there was Catholic opposition to the Nazis in Germany, and the Nazis persecuted Catholics in response. In the long version of that famous quote by Pastor Martin Niemoller Catholics are clearly mentioned :

First they came for the communists,
and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a communist.

Then they came for the socialists,
and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a Jew.

Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a Catholic.

Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me.

In the case of Spain it was quite different, there wasn’t just “a lack of opposition” by the Catholic Church to Fascism, the Church positively supported the Fascists. My father who was a committed atheist and fought in the Spanish Civil War for the Republic very much felt that he had gone to war against the Catholic Church, at least its hierarchy. Surprisingly it didn’t make him hostile towards Catholic religion and upon marrying my Catholic mother agreed that all their children would be brought up Catholic.