trailhound101 » We live in the United Car Kingdom. Cars and petrol raise revenue but bikes and new infrastructure costs. Sadly the unfettered capitalism preferred by our democratically elected leaders makes the European pro-cycling attitude a mere dream.

I can’t find the link this morning but it’s claimed there is a huge return on investment on Dutch cycle infra but here are some others.

http://www.fastcoexist.com/3034354/the-cities-that-spend-the-most-on-bike-lanes-later-reap-the-most-reward

http://movingforward.discoursemedia.org/costofcommute/

Link to a video taken in the Eindhoven underground bike parking. It is right in the city centre.

One reason I struggle with the idea of returning to the UK is the utter lack of cycling infrastructure and the shitty attitude UK drivers display towards cyclists.

Here in Chelmsford where my folks live you can cross town on bike paths, but you can’t easily get to neighbouring villages without risking life and limb on tight and twisty lanes with drivers too busy thinking about anything other than themselves.

Been here for almost four weeks and already had a bus driver almost take me out and more close passes than I care to count…

It is a shame. Positive steps habe been taken with regards to trail centres and such, but the idea that one might want to simply get about on their bike rather than use it as a tool of recreation seems rather alien.

Had this thread in mind yesterday as I rode to nursery with the bike trailer in tow to pick up my kids. Rode on “bike paths” consisting of a bike painted on a narrow pavement shared with pedestrians and blocked by parked cars forcing me onto the road and into oncoming traffic. Stupid crossings at roundabouts that take you around the corner and a couple of metres away from the main road and make it really difficult to see the traffic (which obviously has priority!) Some really tight turns with stupidly placed road signage in the middle of the “bike path” that’s almost impossible to negotiate towing a trailer. Those staggered barrier things, no idea what purpose they are meant to serve, but are also impossible to negotiate with a trailer, forcing me onto the road again.

It’s easier and safer, and so much quicker, to just ride on the bloody roads 👿

It is so sad that it is diffcult to get around with a kid in a bike trailer. I don’t have kids but I bet there are many people who do cycle to work, then ahve kids then can no longer cycle to work because they don’t want to cycle on main roads in rush hour traffic with their kid in a trailer, so then end up driving. These are the keen one! The chance of getting mr & mrs average who have no interest in bikes doing this drops to zero.

Chris B taking on this mantle is excellent. Sustrans do good work and a few years ago (pre2008) I felt like they were startign to make policical inroads, I’m less sure now.

While I lived in London there was a massive upswing in people using bike as transport as well as people being interested in the cyclesport. HAve other people in other uk cities noticed this. I now live dorset / hampshire boarder adn there is massive upswing in MAMIL, which is good but unfortunalty it is still quite rare to see or hear of people using bieks for utility. Trying to encorage other at work gently does not go down well. People would rather spen over an hour on the bus and walking than cycle for 40min.

It is so sad that it is diffcult to get around with a kid in a bike trailer. I don’t have kids but I bet there are many people who do cycle to work, then ahve kids then can no longer cycle to work because they don’t want to cycle on main roads in rush hour traffic with their kid in a trailer, so then end up driving. These are the keen one! The chance of getting mr & mrs average who have no interest in bikes doing this drops to zero.

It really is a shame that it’s made so difficult as my kids love getting picked up in the trailer and ask for it all the time. It’s funny to see the other kids at nursery being picked up in cars telling their parents they want to go in a trailer too! I really don’t do it enough though as it is such a negotiating all the stupid obstacles that get out in the way. Given the state of the roads and bike paths, you really do need to be fairly dedicated to do it round here. Though funnily enough you do typically get loads of room from cars if you are towing kids in a trailer on the road. Talking to non-biking friends I can say with some certainty that it’s not something Mr & Mrs average would consider given their perceived safety of cycling on British roads 🙁

The more I think about it the sadder I get watching that video from Utrecht.

It does work in Britain. I live in York. In York a vast number of people choose to cycle it.

CB might like to compare and contrast York and Utrecht – one noticeable thing is in both cars can’t go across the city but bikes can.

Was there a pro non motorised transport council in York some time ago that started the ball rolling? I think it is a momentum type of thing. Most people being inherently conservative can’t imagion anythign other than how it is now but more so.

I think medieval roads and nice paths up the river banks and it’s flat probably helped.

And the fact that even starting at the park and ride at the edge of the city (Askham Bar in my case) you can get to the city centre faster by bike that either car or the P&R bus probably helps.

Talking to non-biking friends I can say with some certainty that it’s not something Mr & Mrs average would consider given their perceived safety of cycling on British roads

That’s the paradox though isn’t it, it’s not actually that dangerous, and the only source of danger really is from (collectively) people exactly like them, not saying your friends are bad drivers, but you see my point, the primary danger is from other vehicles on the road.

I’ve had this *actual* conversation with someone before:

– “Oh I don’t know how you do it, I couldn’t ride on the roads it’s so dangerous!”
+ “why’s that then?”
– “Well all the idiot and dangerous drivers”
+ “Do you drive dangerously?”
– “Well no…”
+ “Do you think if I asked anyone else in this room the same question they would say yes?”
– “Well no…”
+ “So who is driving dangerously?”
– “Well you know, them, everyone else!”
+ “But you’ve just said anyone we ask would say they don’t drive dangerously”
– “Yes but they would say that, but some of them do”
+ “but they wouldn’t admit it?”
– “Yes, they’re either lying or don’t realise they’re dangerous”
+ “So were you lying earlier”
– “No!”
+ “And you’re sure you’re not one of the dangerous ones who don’t know it?”
– “no, I’m safe! its other people who are dangerous”
+ “But if I have this discussion with anyone else it will go exactly the same way, to them ‘you’ are one of the ‘other people'”
– “but…”
+ “You see my point? the roads are only dangerous because of ‘people in cars driving dangerously’ which apparently nobody is if you ask them, but other people are, so from over here since I/you don’t know everyone personally, the dangerous people are collectively ‘car drivers’, which means you’ve just told me it’s too dangerous to cycle on the roads because of yourself, but you’re not dangerous and nobody else is either if you ask them, so either its not dangerous at all, or your’e making it dangerous for yourself!”
– “Ummmm…”

I think that was the point I got labelled as ‘ranty cyclist’ 🙂

Ha, you’d have lost me about halfway through that conversation 😉

If you asked me if I was dangerous, I’d have said no… not now, but about 20 years ago, yes I definitely was 🙁

When Stevenage new town was built back in the 1970’s, they put in a dutch style integrated system of segregated bike tracks that linked all the parts of the town. It gets hardly any use and they don’t even bother to connect the new build to the existing system any more. The problem is more to do with the attitudes of us lazy Brits, wedded to our cars and condeming ouselves to pollution, over crowded roads and expanding waistlines… Cash strapped councils aren’t going to invest for the long term in what they see as a minority activity at best and a leisure pursuit at worst. A bit catch 22 as we can’t acheive critical mass without better infrastructure. http://www.roadswerenotbuiltforcars.com/stevenage/

Ha, you’d have lost me about halfway through that conversation

I think I captured their attention by responding with something other than the “yes, I know, awful isn’t it” that they were expecting

Re: Stevenage, If I remember correctly it also has a fairly major road network as well though? So as you noted, given the lazy easy (and normal?) option, people used cars.

If the cycle infrastructure, and pedestrian routes had been put in and planned as the primary mode of transport things might have been different*. Had the road network choked over time, or not been as extensive in the first place I think more people would have chosen to make use of it.

Cash strapped councils aren’t going to invest for the long term in what they see as a minority activity at best and a leisure pursuit at worst. A bit catch 22 as we can’t acheive critical mass without better infrastructure

Stevenage was in the enviable position of being built pretty much from scratch, but existing towns and cities are straining under increased weight of traffic and unable to easily expand their roads, and not blessed with the massive capacity that Stevenage and other New Towns have, so it would be more beneficial to local authority to make those investments, and it’s not appropriate to diorectly compare the different environments.

* Arguably better, but it still would have involved, to some extent, forcing people out of their cars, which never goes down well, but it would at least have helped to get to the point where it is more ‘normal’ to use other modes of transport.