[Closed] UR BIK IS SARACING

So Saracen, initially great cro-mo bikes in the early 90’s, missed the boat a bit with the change in fashion to alloy bikes, then went into a phase where they were looked down on by serious MTBers as cheap imitators.

Very well respected in the 80's, one of the first British brands to offer big tube aluminium frames in 90/91, were bought out in the mid 90's and turned in to a budget brand. The owners stuffed them, not any missed boats.

Owned by Shimano now right? Seem to have been churning out decent quality and value proper bikes for a fair few years (that nobody buys).

They do seem to have an image problem, that is for sure.

The bikes themselves seem pretty well liked by those that ride them now, but they are still hobbled by perception, it would seem.

The bikes look smart, although the eeb is the only one I would want these days.
Unfortunately the brand is about as desirable as carrera or apollo though.

Owned by Shimano now right? Seem to have been churning out decent quality and value proper bikes for a fair few years (that nobody buys).

Not Shimano, 'just' Madison the UK importer who must be sizeable in their own right tbf

but they are still hobbled by perception, it would seem.

I think that perception is in decline, but they also didn't help themselves with lovely looking frames that gobbled up bushes with alarming frequency for a few years

They do look good vfm but seem to have swallowed the mullet cool aid for the S and M frames while still keeping room for 29 wheels, which seems to defeat some of the purpose. And superboost 157 back ends will probably limit frame only sales. Shame really.

They were cracking bikes in the 90's - I remember lusting after my mates 94 Tuff Trax Elite - full Deore LX group set.
I got him a decent discount on it too.

I had an Element2 in 2008 - it wasn't a patch on the older ones.

He still has the Tuff Trax - I keep trying to buy it off him!

The newer ones are pretty good - worked on 2017 Myst and 2019 Ariel on my Cytech course - really nice frames.

I think having the likes of Manon Carpenter, Danny H and a couple of other higher profile riders doing well on them has helped.

Some (great) Saracen biks I have owned*:

1989 Kili Flyer

2010 Ariel

2011 Zen 3

* Not the actual ones I owned

They make some decent bikes, I rode the first Ariel Prototype when Madison relaunched the brand in 2008ish? and it was good for the time. They just seem to make some odd choices, like the Super Boost thing and the BB heights seem sky high too on these new ones. The old Traverse was a downcountry bike before downcountry was even a thing, but they gave it a stupid tall seat tube and a silly 142mm offset rear end. They could have been on a real winner with that as the spec was good and the rest of the geometry was pretty sound too. It's like they get 90% of a bike right and then fall asleep at the last minute. Might sound harsh but they do take the shine of otherwise nice bikes. These new ones are heavy AF as well!

I'd get one. When I replace my ancient Patriot I'd be looking for a good VFM reasonably priced enduro type bike, so they'd probably be ideal.

I'd have one of their longer travel enduro bikes, if it was the right price. I think they look cool. They just wouldn't be my first choice "go to" name.

I'm also sceptical about superboost, and agree that may limit frame sales, but most people just want to buy a complete MTB and don't swap wheels between several bikes - so I suspect they'll sell everything they make at full price this year.

1989 Kili Flyer

Kili Flyer - that was the name I was trying to remember. That was my ultimate lust (though maybe a 86 model) with the Tufftrax as the attainable but still just out of reach ambition.

Was it Saracen that did the odd rough like concrete-like paint finish for a while in the 90s?

@convert

Odd rough concrete paint sounds like Marin and Zolatone!

I fail to see the point of Super Boost - if you're looking to even the spoke tension then the standard 157 downhill hub is better as it has 50/50.

Full article on ENDURO-MTB here.

For as long as I remember there have been other brands both global and UK based which have been better than Saracen at every stage from weight, performance, finishing kit, team results, price etc etc.

In the 90s Saracen never wowed in the MBUK/MBR group tests nor became the local rider's favourite. GT, Kona, Orange, Specialized, Gary Fisher, Pro Flex, Scott, Trek etc were the staple choice.

Into the 00s they seemed to head into obscurity.

Worse value the emerging own brands of the eras like carrera and then with the EU brands like Cube, not as good as the slightly more expensive niche brands or similarly priced mainstream brands and not that widely available in stores.

Odd rough concrete paint sounds like Marin and Zolatone!

Yes - it was Marin. Thanks. Just googled Marin - some of theirs look ok too now. For a while they became a bit of a (squeaky - always seemed to be be squeaky) dad bike.

They seem to make some great bikes nowadays, but there will be some of us of the right/wrong age to know when they were a 'Halfords brand'.

Still Manon Carpenter and Danny Hart raced for them, so they're pretty far from BSOs these days.

Brand-wise they're like Skoda.
Nothing at all wrong with them yet there's the underlying old perception that they were shite and they really struggle to shake that tag. And they are just not 'cool' - whatever that is.

“BB heights seem sky high too on these new ones”

They really aren’t! The 80 has 14mm of BB drop on 27.5 wheels with 180mm of travel to sit into.

Kili Flyer – that was the name I was trying to remember. That was my ultimate lust (though maybe a 86 model)

Mine was the Kili Flyer, Prestige main triangle with Deore.

My pal had the Kili Flyer Pro (turquoise), full Prestige and XT.

Both filet brazed with lovely smooth joins though.

Still Manon Carpenter and Danny Hart raced for them, so they’re pretty far from BSOs these days

Don't forget Matt Walker. Winner of the 2020 DH World Cup on a Saracen.

if you’re looking to even the spoke tension then the standard 157 downhill hub is better as it has 50/50.

I think you're confusing spoke tension with length. Offset wheels have different lengths, but if the tension was different the wheel would just pull to the side until it evened out, no? I guess the advantage superboost has is that the spokes on the non-drive side are at a wider angle (compared to dh wheels) which might improve strength (not sure on that last bit)

bb drop seems about normal (30mm on the 130mm bike) - the only thing that seems out of place is the low-travel droppers

I think you’re confusing spoke tension with length. Offset wheels have different lengths, but if the tension was different the wheel would just pull to the side until it evened out, no?

nope

https://spokecalc.io/spoke-tension-the-difinitive-guide.html

It wouldn't stop me buying one if I really wanted it, but Saracen will always be associated with Halfords for me, and for being crap but slightly better than Apollo. Madison could have come up with a new name, or Tomac and Titus were up for sale around the same time, before On One trashed them.

Genuinely annoying and disappointing to see SuperBoost. Means it's now spreading beyond Knolly and a few Dave Weagle suspended brands.

But when / where did the phrase originate? Earliest I can find is on here from 11 years back but not sure if it predates the mighty hack or comes from mlehworld or somewhere else. I seem to remember it being connected to Kaesae RIP???

https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/mountain-biking-in-london/

Anyone know?

But when / where did the phrase originate? Earliest I can find is on here from 11 years back but not sure if it predates the mighty hack or comes from mlehworld or somewhere else. I seem to remember it being connected to Kaesae RIP???

https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/mountain-biking-in-london/

Anyone know?

I think it was on the bikemagic forum before this place changed from gofar. sometime 2000ish?

I thought it was the MBUK forum?

My brothers both had Sarcings, a Tufftrek hardtail and a Raw full suss. Frames must have been solid lead or something for them to weigh so much. I especially liked the full suss's wheels, which said "BOMBER EXTREME: Not for extreme use"

http://www.retrobike.co.uk/gallery2/v/Manufacturer+Archive/Saracen/Catalogues/Saracen_1989-1990.pdf.html

Golden Age of Saracen.

89 Tufftrax was my first proper MTB. Loved it, rode it everywhere, then bought a cooler Orange Clockwork!

My mate has still got his Saracen Raw Downhill 2 in back and red. It must be pushing 23 years old now and I think his dad still uses it.

One of the old Y-frame 1 ton specials 🙂

I struggle to disassociate then from the bad Halfords days as I worked there at the time. Every delivery we would hate seeing a box saying "Raw", "AWOL" or even "Rufftrax" as they were the heaviest bikes we sold. Not nice when you have to carry it up two flights of stairs!

The new Ariel 30 is actually the type of bike I'm looking for and the right price but the weight, strange choice of reach on the medium (more like a large) and mixed wheels put me off. Add in the hefty weight and it's off the list for me sadly, there's no easy losses like OEM stems and bars. Hadn't even spotted it's Super Boost, that's another negative for me.

As others have said above, so close to a decent bike but a few strange choices knock it back.

I've got a lovely 98 kili team...

Tange, renoylds. Richter drop outs.

Love it....

I have a very nice 2014 Ariel 14X which is sitting, partially disassembled in by garage attic, as an "emergency bike". I might sell it come the summer.

Yup 89-90 (and maybe a year or two before) were peak Saracen. I also had (still have in the attic with brazed in ss dropouts) that same Kili Flyer, fillet Prestige with Deore.

Very well respected in the 80’s,

Yep, I remember lusting over a Tufftrax in about 86 when I couldn't afford it.

I had to make do with a Ridgeback 601.

I have one of the first Ariel frames via a mate who had it sat in his shed for years, unable to get rid of it :-). I think he had it built up at least twice.

It is a bit high and short by modern standards, but on the upside it's built like a tank.

Here it is in relatively recent years, running a slightly mental 160mm 650b fork (given it was designed as a 140mm travel 26er) and offset bushings. Who knows what the geometry is now? Who cares!

View this post on Instagram

I've just realised with the 650b fork I could actually run a 650b front wheel and make it crazier still. Hmm 🤔

Benji used to love his.

This place was better with Benji....

Yep, I remember lusting over a Tufftrax in about 86 when I couldn’t afford it.

I had to make do with a Ridgeback 601

Me too, except I desperately wanted a Marin, they seemed incredibly cool but we were about to get married and were saving for house deposits and stuff.

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My Kili from 2012.

That looks great.

Would be cool if they bought back the kili as a steel 29er trail HT with progressive geo.

Not with super boost though, obvs.

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I thought it was the MBUK forum?

I’m fairly sure it was the MBUK forum too

I'm not in the market for one but I wouldn't say no to one.

That said, I'm 52 and not as fashion led as the market they are perhaps chasing.

Ariel 30 Reach figures make me think size down - 455mm on a small, 480mm on a medium.

22mm width rims, 25mm on the Pro version.

That would make sense with STA around 74deg, but these have 76+deg seat tube angles at ride height, so what looks long doesn’t feel it.

Im sure it was MBUK. Can anyone find the MBUK Forumizer?

Good bikes. I would consider one.

I need to know they've sorted the dodgy alignment/bushing/bearing issue of a couple of years ago.

No bushings since the last Ariel redesign in 2018.

In the 90s Saracen never wowed in the MBUK/MBR group tests nor became the local rider’s favourite. GT, Kona, Orange, Specialized, Gary Fisher, Pro Flex, Scott, Trek etc were the staple choice.

Into the 00s they seemed to head into obscurity.

They did actually get good reviews on the occasions that they appeared in the mags. When I was doing my initial research for buying my first MTB and was reading MBUK, they were well thought of (this was early 90's).

I bought a Saracen Sahara Elite from Edwardes in Camberwell and then a few years later (and again after seeing a top notch review in MTB Pro), I bought a Saracen Kili Ultra - the full titanium one - via Evans (actually direct from Saracen, they did a custom build deal on it where they built it with the groupset and parts from the next bike down so XT instead of XTR cos I was a poor student).

The following year, the Ti was only available with sus forks so the one I had was the last of the straight blade rigid Ti forks.

And then from about 2001 onwards they just went to a BSO brand. Heavy cheap "full sus", snazzy graphics etc to appeal to the early-teenage rider. It was a long haul back from those years of being cheap and crap.

I quite like the look of those new bikes.

Personally I don't see the brand as tarnished by the BSO years particularly, though the "Ur bike is saracin" is always mildly amusing.

As others have said, they've just made some odd product choices and been a bit overpriced in recent years. Would be really pleased to see them do well with these bikes.