Home Forums Chat Forum UK Vs US Constitutions

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  • UK Vs US Constitutions
  • muddydwarf
    Free Member

    On the thread about the latest shootings in the US it has been remarked that the US Constitution is almost impossible to amend, especially given the resistance from a large part of the populace vis a vis gun control.

    My question is how easy/difficult is it to change or amend the UK Constitution in comparison?

    mrmo
    Free Member

    My question is how easy/difficult is it to change or amend the UK Constitution in comparison?

    Piece of piss,

    Try and find a paper copy….

    druidh
    Free Member

    What UK constitution? There’s nothing written down, so one could argue that it is constantly evolving.

    davidjones15
    Free Member

    No single document, but the laws that we are governed by do exist. To that end you can choose that the complexity and number of laws will make it difficult or the change/interpretation of a single law will simplify.

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    what he said

    We have one via all our laws, conventions etc just not in one document]The rules for changing it are the same as any other law – in the US they cannot have unconstitutional laws whereas we can have any law via a simple majority in parliament [ and the ascent of the Crown].

    Its a swings and roundabout thing

    We dont end up with anachronism but we could potentially have a despot who banned elections and nothing is enshrined in tablets of stone so to speak

    Klunk
    Free Member

    What UK constitution? There’s nothing written down, so be thankful for the European Court of Human Rights.

    CountZero
    Full Member

    We don’t have a written Constitution. We have the Magna Carta, and the Bill Of Rights, but, as far as I’m aware, neither carries the weight that the US Constitution carries, as neither has been fully enshrined into British law in the same way.
    I’m happy to be corrected on this, because my knowledge of British legal rights is scant, to say the least, but that’s my understanding.
    There are many on here who know shitloads more than I ever will on the subject.

    maccruiskeen
    Full Member

    Well it turns out we have had a written constitution all along. I found it in my attic. It confers rather a lot of privileges on tall blokes and anyone who’s slightly ginger it turns out.

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    it is written down as we have written laws we just dont have one document called a constitution

    ITs often termed unwritten but it mean uncodified – ie not written in a single document

    MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    iirc, there’s only two clauses in the Magna Carta that are still in force, but it was great while it lasted

    molgrips
    Free Member

    Problem is, you can’t change gun laws in the US. The law abiding people may give them up but the criminals will just laugh. The same criminals will then continue to sell to people who want them on the black market, and you won’t even have the very slight controls you have now.

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    molly worng thread [ and I replied DOH

    muddydwarf
    Free Member

    I understand that the UK doesn’t have one single document etc, but that the collective body of Law and Statute regarding the Crown and Parliament are known as the Constitution. What i meant was, if a central tenet of British life and law such as the English Bill of Rights was to be amended how easily could Parliament do so – especially if the populace were against the idea.

    br
    Free Member

    I understand that the UK doesn’t have one single document etc, but that the collective body of Law and Statute regarding the Crown and Parliament are known as the Constitution

    Is it, I’m guessing you’re either not British or read fiction?

    There is no UK Constitution.

    And AFAIK the US Constitution can only be changed by (large) majorities in both Houses, so won’t happen.

    Zulu-Eleven
    Free Member

    We don’t have a written Constitution. We have the Magna Carta, and the Bill Of Rights, but, as far as I’m aware, neither carries the weight that the US Constitution carries, as neither has been fully enshrined into British law in the same way.

    Oh, they’re more than enshrined in law – and set out as laws that cannot be repealed

    Just that we’ve chosen, as a society, to conveniently ignore their inviolability.

    muddydwarf
    Free Member

    It would appear that these people believe there is such a thing as the UK Constitution :-

    http://www.ucl.ac.uk/constitution-unit/research/uk-constitution

    Also answers some of my question but not all.

    deviant
    Free Member

    No they dont, they state quite early in the article that there is no such thing as a UK constitution, rather a mixture of laws and parliamentary acts that govern British life.
    They even point out why this is, the UK has been stable for 1000 years, no revolutions and no need to start from scratch thus requiring some form of constitution.

    They then inexplicably start referring to a UK constitution…..not worth reading after that massive contradiction.

    Being an ancient and wise people we have no need for something as tacky as a constitution, we have constantly evolving laws, acts and rights that demonstrate to the rest of the heathen world what reasonable and adaptable people the British are.

    Zulu-Eleven
    Free Member

    They state quite early in the article that there is no such thing as a UK constitution

    No they don’t

    a mixture of laws and parliamentary acts that govern British life.

    What do you think a constitution is?

    the UK has been stable for 1000 years, no revolutions

    And 1688 was what exactly?

    we have constantly evolving laws,

    Which do you prefer?

    We have granted also, and given to all the Freemen of our Realm, for Us and our Heirs for ever, these Liberties under-written, to have and to hold to them and their Heirs, of Us and our Heirs for ever.

    or

    do pray that it may be declared and enacted that all and singular the rights and liberties asserted and claimed in the said declaration are the true, ancient and indubitable rights and liberties of the people of this kingdom, and so shall be esteemed, allowed, adjudged, deemed and taken to be; and that all and every the particulars aforesaid shall be firmly and strictly holden and observed as they are expressed in the said declaration, and all officers and ministers whatsoever shall serve their Majesties and their successors according to the same in all time to come.

    druidh
    Free Member

    The UK hasn’t existed for 1,000 years. If that’s a sign of the accuracy of that site I’ll give it a miss.

    muddydwarf
    Free Member

    Well no, they refer to a lack of a ‘written’ constitution and a lack of a single defining document but then say it is more accurate to say it is an uncodified constitution so i see no contradiction in their stance that a UK constitution exists but not in a form used by most other nations.

    Klunk
    Free Member

    the UK has been stable for 1000 years

    Tell that to Charles I

    deviant
    Free Member

    So it doesnt exist then?!

    The article is clear that laws have evolved as they’re needed which is surely better than being stuck with an outdated piece of paper like the yanks have which is going to prove to be a real ball ache if/when they decide to tackle their gun problem.

    I like our system.

    muddydwarf
    Free Member

    I quite like our system – as far as i understand it but i’m no constitutional scholar. Whish is why i put the question out there.

    Just because it doesn’t exist in a form similar to that of the US doesn’t mean it does not exist.

    deviant
    Free Member

    Perhaps the fact that we’re not a country full of retards (US) or revolutionaries that set fire to something whenever we dont get our own way (France) means that we dont need a simplistic written article to govern ourselves in this country?

    muddydwarf
    Free Member

    Possibly not, but it’s not that long since we were revolting and cutting up kings or booting them out of the country, we’re not that different to the US or France.

    cynic-al
    Free Member

    did Magna Carta die for nothing?

    IIRC Our consitution is one of conventions – little is statutory (or codified) – and as such there are little/no laws re changing it.

    EDIT ZE are you saying that Parliament has bound itself? NOT POSSIBLE!

    Zulu-Eleven
    Free Member

    Precisely – hence my comment that we’ve ignored their inviolability.

    If we looked at the intention at the time the BOR was made (a pepper V hart argument) then clearly their intention was to bind future parliaments.

    Regardless, MC was not initially a statute, it was a a constitutional settlement that bound the crown to recognise the common law, nothing to do with parliament – and if you read up on your Coke, then there’s fairly strong arguments over the ability of parliament to legislate in contravention of the common law, and that any monarch that signs laws in contravention of the constitution is guilty of Treason…

    And you wonder why parliament has chosen to ignore the BOR and legislate against our right to bear arms (where do you think the americans got their ideas from?)

    muddydwarf
    Free Member

    Only if you are Protestant though, the Bill Of Rights specifically lays out the provisions for Protestants to bear arms against a Catholic enemy from within – or so i understood it…

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    for those arguing we have no constitution this would mean in extremis we have no rules about how we are goverened and that is prima facie bobbins

    Because there is no one single document titled constitution doe snot mean there are no rules that constitute how we are governed

    we even have a select committee in the place that governs us , on constitutional issues

    http://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/political-and-constitutional-reform-committee/

    To claim there is none is wrong and requires you taking a quite entrenched position and claim its fiction if you like. Its true to say there is no one document that sets down immutable principles but that does not mean we are without rules.
    Try and get the House of Lords to overrule the House of Commons for example- they dont even try as they know the other place is constitutionally the primary law maker.

    deviant
    Free Member

    Nobody is saying there are no rules, what is being said is we dont have a constitution like America….which is correct, in a way ours is a more tangled web having evolved over centuries…..try and define it simply or try to subtract parts of it as a standalone constitution and there will be contradictory acts which can be held up against it….in a way our version of a ‘constitution’ is more free form and cannot be held in absolute like the American amendments….which is good, it allows for common sense.

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    I would re read the thread if you think no one is saying we dont have a constitution
    Try and find a paper copy..MR mo
    What UK constitution? – DruidH
    What UK constitution? – Klunk
    I understand that the UK doesn’t have one single document etc, but that the collective body of Law and Statute regarding the Crown and Parliament are known as the Constitution
    Is it, I’m guessing you’re either not British or read fiction?
    There is no UK Constitution.
    br

    I got bored there and you seem to have way of saying it like its a question rather than your opinion 😉

    Zulu-Eleven
    Free Member

    which is good, it allows for common sense.

    It also allows for governments to take away things that most of us would view as sacrosanct

    like the right to trial by jury, and freedom from imprisonment without trial, or taking away our right to free speech.

    All the above being things we’ve seen increasing pressure on in the last decade, apparently for the greater good.

    loum
    Free Member

    They are better at eating meat.
    We are better at drinking beer.

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